22124 issues

[scott spencer]

I'm one of those who jumped on the latest great deals on the Craftsman 22124 "mini" cabinet saws. The 22124 replaced a very nice GI contractor saw that was tricked out and running well. I had the opportunity to run another 22124 before I bought one....I was impressed and attracted to the numerous features.

Unfortunately, at this point I'm ready to exchange it for another machine or seek a complete refund. The saw had numerous cosmetic issues and nuisance flaws, but it was excessive vibration and arbor runout that was the last straw.

For starters the top had a small scratch, the nameplate has a noticeable mark on it, the laminated extension table is warped like many others, the paint job on the fence rail is pretty bad and looks like it should be sold as a blem, plus even the Sears mobile base had some rust on it. None of the cosmetic issues alone would have been enough for me to take any action on.....all of them combined had me thinking about "discussing" it. I'm not that fussy and am far from anal, but the disappointment when I ran the saw was a deciding factor. I do plan to bother my friend Tom and attempt swapping belts on his machine just to eliminate one possibility, but I highly doubt that's the cause.

Thanks for letting me rant. Do any other 22124 (or 22104/22114) owners have similar issues?

[Tim Morton]

Sorry to hear this has turned south on ya Tom...you have to ask yourself "the" question before to long. "is this saw going to make me happy even if the vibration is taken care of?". If not it might be time to take Sears up on there no questions asked 30 day return. If you cruise over to woodnet you will find alot more zip code saw owners...good luck!!!

[Mark Singer]

I think you should return it....and decide on something else.

[Mike Deschler]

Scott:

Sorry to hear about your problems especially those concerning vibration and arbor run out. In this case go for the exchange or refund. There is no sense in screwing around with these items. I had some cosmetic issues with my 22124 when I first purchased it but between Orion's offer and Sear's additional price adjustments, decided to keep the saw. I had some black marks which could not be removed around the base of the cabinet. Fortunately my Shop Fox base covers these marks from sight. From a performance view, my saw is exceeding vibration free and powerful enough for every project. I am very pleased with this unit.

With all due respects, I think Orion is going through a learning curve with these saws and doing business with Sears is not an easy task. The saw designs are excellent and with their experience and abilities, I am sure that they will sort out their minor quality control problems. Perhaps a few more USA quality control people are needed in China to catch these issues before the product gets shipped.

Personally, I would pay double for a product like this if it were made in the USA and I could be assured of the quality and performance. But due to corporate greed, I don't have that option any longer. I think we all will be paying a very high price in the future for allowing this to happen.

[scott spencer]

Just got off the phone with Sears ....even though it's Mother's Day, I couldn't hold off until tomorrow. They listened to my saga, talked over a couple of possibilities, then offered to bring a new saw out and pick up the defective one next Saturday. They were really nice about it, and called me back within a few minutes of my initial call. I know these things can happen...I've been pretty fortunate up to now, but it's the customer service response that really helps heal the wounds. I'm impressed with the friendliness, prompt response, and even their technical understanding of my explanations.

At least there's reason for optimism and I'm likely to enjoy the holiday with my wife and family instead of being distracted and miserable! I've heard enough positives about these saws that I'm very comfortable with the odds of getting a good one.

[John Shuk]

Just got off the phone with Sears ....even though it's Mother's Day, I couldn't hold off until tomorrow. They listened to my saga, talked over a couple of possibilities, then offered to bring a new saw out and pick up the defective one next Saturday. They were really nice about it, and called me back within a few minutes of my initial call. I know these things can happen...I've been pretty fortunate up to now, but it's the customer service response that really helps heal the wounds. I'm impressed with the friendliness, prompt response, and even their technical understanding of my explanations.

At least there's reason for optimism and I'm likely to enjoy the holiday with my wife and family instead of being distracted and miserable! I've heard enough positives about these saws that I'm very comfortable with the odds of getting a good one.

Todd,
Check your pm.
John

[Todd Davidson]

I too had a couple cosmetic blemishes on the cabinet of my saw. A call to Orion about touch up paint resulted in their providing me with the # of the Krylon paint they use for touch ups. I also asked about the "defect" on the underside of the Biesmeyer rail (due to, I was told, how the rails are rested for painting). Orion said they would send me a new rail but it would take a couple weeks. For my trouble Orion also sent a couple free blades (1 rip & 1 cross-cut). I then called Sears because, although I appreciated Orion's willingness to make good on the problems, I wasn't thrilled with the idea of waiting a couple weeks for a rail so I could use a saw I had just purchased. Sears agreed and had a whole new complete Biesmeyer fence system delivered in two days. Other than the cosmetic issues I have no complaints - and given both Orion's and Sears' prompt and gracious customer service I am thus far very satisfied. My saw is still in the garage until my shop/basement floor gets poured this week. Will post again on the saw once I get it re-set up and fine tuned in its permanent location.

Good luck with the delivery next Saturday Scott! Please post after you get the saw assembled. I own one other Orion manufactured tool (a variable speed 6" grinding/polishing machine) that I'm happy with and coupled with their customer service, their "roots", and everything I've read about the company I think Orion will prove to be a worthy manufacturer.

[CPeter James]

I looked at those saws at the local Sears store and while they are prices reasonalable, on closer inspection, it looked to me that they had a lot in common with lighter duty machines and less with the heavier cabinet saws. For the same or not much more money you could have a new Grizzly, ShopFox, or Bridgewood and for a little more than that a Jet or Delta. There is no substitution for weight in getting things to be stable and smooth. If it were mine, I would take the money and go elsewhere. Nothing is perfect, even the super expensive European machines have defects, but will you ever be happy with this?

I am sorry to be harsh, but I have been down this road before and learned from it.

My $.02 worth.

CPeter

[Ellen Benkin]

I would have wanted a new saw anyway, and it's great that your Sears is willing to bring it to you and pick up the defective saw. If the delivery guys are really from Sears (they often outsource deliveries here) try to get them to wait to see if the new saw is acceptable. If not, they can take back both of them in one trip. If quality control is bad for two saws, you know it probably is not worth keeping. I know that with appliances the delivery includes setup, but I don't know if the same thing is true for table saws.

[scott spencer]

I looked at those saws at the local Sears store and while they are prices reasonalable, on closer inspection, it looked to me that they had a lot in common with lighter duty machines and less with the heavier cabinet saws. For the same or not much more money you could have a new Grizzly, ShopFox, or Bridgewood and for a little more than that a Jet or Delta. There is no substitution for weight in getting things to be stable and smooth. If it were mine, I would take the money and go elsewhere. Nothing is perfect, even the super expensive European machines have defects, but will you ever be happy with this? CPeter

You're right about the 22124 being lighter duty than the commercial grade cabinet saws....they don't appear to me to be making any attempts to market these saws against a good industrial grade saw. They've just taken some cabinet saw elements and applied them to a home duty saw to fill a large niche....something I think we'll see more of in the future. My GI has even lower weight than the Sears and vibration was not an issue with it...there was an assignable defect causing that.

I was able to pick the 22124 up for $594....the attractive price was one of the reasons that I actually took the plunge. My GI was a great saw and I wasn't seriously considering moving it. I was pretty familiar with the 22124 and was impressed with a friend's. Had Sears not offered an irresistable price I would have never done it....still not sure I should have! If I were looking in the $850-$900 range I'd consider a full cabinet saw. But I couldn't touch a new one for under $975 and I'm not sure it would be equipped with everything I'd want....$400 to our budget isn't close enough to where I could have ever considered it. My 220 line is maxed with a 2hp DC and a 1-3/4hp TS motor....add upgraded electrical requirements to the extra cost of a full cab saw, and it's out of the question for my needs.

[scott spencer]

.... If quality control is bad for two saws, you know it probably is not worth keeping. I know that with appliances the delivery includes setup, but I don't know if the same thing is true for table saws.

The saw delivery just includes delivery, no set up. The 22124 comes in a steel crate that's got nylon straps, a cardboard cover and several small bolts to unscrew. It'd probably take close to an hour to unpack it enough to get it to where I could plug it in....I doubt they'll stick around! If this one isn't good, I don't foresee giving them a third chance....this isn't baseball. Now you've got me worried.....I don't have a plan C"!

[Corey Hallagan]

Hey Scott, sorry to hear you got a lemon, hope the swap turns out to be a sweet deal for you. I guess I missed it when you said you were going to get a new saw. Man, somebody will be getting a decent deal on a used GI Contractors saw.. all set up and humming purdy! Good luck on the new saw.

Corey

[Dev Emch]

Scott...

Kick it to the curb! You got rid of a comfortable and working saw in an attempt to upgrade your current situation. Do you feel upgraded?

Cosmetic damage of one sort or another does happen and light suerficial rust occurs all the time if your not slobbering everything in slushing grease or cosmoline. Little naval jelly and steel wool will fix that. Even my expensive german shaper sustained damage from CA to CO which I will eventually have to fix. The CA guys, name not mentioned, did not crate it correctly after removal from the container in Annaheim. Oh Well, not enough trouble for me to be concerned and I will fix the cosmetic damage myself. Relatively Minor.

But spindle runnout! Dude! Thats the holly grail of woodworking and metalworking machines! That and warped, out of flat tables. And vibration. Well, your a better person than me for putting up with these items on a new machine!

Do you really think that getting another unit will solve your runnout issue? Maybe. That the nice thing about not having any quality control. One unit is spot on perfect, the next unit is so far out, it is hopeless.

For many years, designers pushed direct drive as the ultimate drive. In some cases, they were right. Table saws were one case where the 3600 RPM arbor speed was spot on. Direct drive shapers were never a hit. Even with a 120 cycle freq unit, they were limited to 7200 RPM. But the major touted advantage to direct drive was less vibration.

Well, now its the year 2005. We have learned our lessons and many machines are not direct drive but pulley or sheave drive. The key is to machine and balance all the rotating items such as shafts, bearings, bushings and pulleys. And for that last 2 percent, matching multiple belts for multiple belt drive setups. There is no excuse and no reason why these machines should suffer from drive induced vibration. If you do, then something more serious is wrong. Somebody has not their job!

A circular saw blade is a fairly basic item and modern ones are laser cut to reduce ringing or harmonic vibration. When one of these modern blades is on, you should hardly know its running other than a quiet swooossssh from the minor windage coming off the teeth. If your table saw feels like one of those cheap hotel beds after you insert the quarter, then you have a faulty machine.

So all in all, I would demand that the machine be replaced. Do you have the time and expertise to trouble shoot a table saw? If so, how much are you being paid for working sear's customer service engineering department? Yaaaaa!!!!! Exactly!!!!! Kick it to the curb and have them bring another one!

Personally, if I were in your shoes, this is what I would do. I would force Sears to return the saw and refund your money. Then I would scrape the pickle jar and check between the sofa cushions for any spare change. Contact your favorate General dealer if not Ashman Technical in Canada and find out what the current price for a general 350 or 650 is. See if they have any leads on a used machine as well. Also see if they may have any leads on a used PRE-JET PM-66 (PJ-Matic) in either the "Greenie-Meanie" or the "Sparkle Gold" paint jobs. Greenie meanies are metalic green with a white racing stripe.

One more thing guys, prices are **NOT** fixed with the exception of dealers like amazon. If your not haggling the price, your not working the deal! I see some of you old timers smiling and nodding your heads up and down and others with gaping open mouths. Always always always pester the seller to lower that price. Never before in US history have US machine dealers been so desperate to make deals. Take advantage of this before their all gone. For every hold out, there are a hanfull who will work the deal.

Best of luck in your quest....

[CPeter James]

One thing that Dave and I agree on is buy old(er) iron. Most of the stuff in my shop depreciated at someone else's expense and is worth more now than what I paid. I drooled over top of the line cabinet saws for 10 years and finally bought a 12 year old PM66 for $1,000. Sold my dragged-out-of-the-woods Darrah James for what I had in the fence. A very small amount of my time and effort on the new one have a better than new machine. If you need it now, you will pay too much. It is like looking for a new job, if you don't need one there are plenty. Patience pays big dividends.

CPeter

[Tony Falotico]

Do any other 22124 (or 22104/22114) owners have similar issues?

Scott, you kinda got me worried here so I put mine through the paces.

Runout was negligible, my gage is accurate to 0.001", runout was less than one increment, about 0.0005"

There is no noticeable vibration, I had trouble getting a nickel to stand on end with all the wax I've put on it, but see for yourself below ....

Blade to miter slot parallelism (is that a word?) was about 0.004". Guess I'll need to mess with the top this weekend.

Hopefully, you just got a foul one and your replacement will be acceptable.