HELP choosing wood species for a "newbie" kitchen...

[Kelby Van Patten]

Mark, with sapwood you have a few options: 1) Stain the whole thing a dark enough reddish brown color that you don't notice the color difference between the sapwood and heartwood (which is what most builders seem to do, and I think it looks atrocious); 2) Cut away the sapwood and use only heartwood, which will result in some waste, but probably not too bad if you pick your material carefully; 3) Use the sapwood and see it as a positive rather than as something you feel the need to hide! I personally like the color variation that sapwood provides, but you have to put a little more thought into how you use it so that it comes together in an artful way. I've never tried staining just the sapwood to match the rest; to me, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It would be very difficult to get a perfect match, and even if you can get a perfect match, the unstained heartwood will quickly begin to darken, and it won't be a perfect match anymore.

[Mark Kay]

Mark, with sapwood you have a few options: 1) Stain the whole thing a dark enough reddish brown color that you don't notice the color difference between the sapwood and heartwood (which is what most builders seem to do, and I think it looks atrocious); 2) Cut away the sapwood and use only heartwood, which will result in some waste, but probably not too bad if you pick your material carefully; 3) Use the sapwood and see it as a positive rather than as something you feel the need to hide! I personally like the color variation that sapwood provides, but you have to put a little more thought into how you use it so that it comes together in an artful way. I've never tried staining just the sapwood to match the rest; to me, that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. It would be very difficult to get a perfect match, and even if you can get a perfect match, the unstained heartwood will quickly begin to darken, and it won't be a perfect match anymore.

Kelby, thanks. I too like the contrast of sapwood to heartwood sometimes if done tastefully. As for staining or dye, I've recently read an article in American Woodworker, Issue #140 from FEB/MAR 2009, where they tried to selectively stain heart/sap cherry to match aged cherry, somewhat successfully, but with the understanding that you darken pores in the progress, something that doesn't happen naturally with aging. They used a gel topcoat on the entire board, then used Candelite gel stain over the sapwood, then a 2nd coat of Candlelite gel stain over everything. That's the first I've ever heard about Candlelite... maybe it may have UV inhibitors or something that slows or reduces the darkening with age of cherry--I don't know. I actually saved the article in condensed form from their website somehow, then found the actual issue but didn't read the whole article yet. Or maybe time catches up!

aged%20cherry_gel%20topcoat.jpgaged%20cherry_candlelite%201.jpgaged%20cherry_candlelite%202.jpg

[Mark Kay]

Yup, I was referring to painted cabinets. I do spray most of my work though as a lot of people like the sprayed finish. In my mind it depends on the project, some things look better hand brushed IMHO. Painted is not for everyone, but it does have it's advantages. As for staining wood I have no problem with it. I've stained cherry in all sorts of shades as well as other woods and to me it's more important to give the client what works in their situation, than what I might like for myself.

Walnut is a dark wood when steamed and a mix of dark and light when not. Whether or not you want to stain it to get it even is a personal choice. However I would not pay $5 a bd. ft. for air dried walnut. It's been a while since I've bought walnut but I don't think it would cost me that much for kiln dried and I always look at air dried as a cheap alternative With 2 CFL's in the kitchen your going to want to either completely redo the lighting or stick with light colors. Even in a small kitchen with light colors you'll probably want more than 2 lights. I did 5 floods in mine plus the under counter and it's a pretty small kitchen.

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff, I have only asked one place for a price on 4/4 walnut and it was $4.25/BF (for KD.). I assumed the $5 walnut was because they were all at least 14" wide and they considered the width a premium. I have seen it on ebay as shorts, 15/16" x 3" x 36", for $2-$3 each, and I think $36 shipping for 30 boards. Except for the 2 pantries, that size would probably work okay... if they were straight without any twist/bow/crook/wane/warp/checking. I should probably call more places, and for plywood prices too.

[Mark Kay]

cherry heartwood/sapwood, click on pic.
traditional-kitchen-rustic-cherry.jpg

[Bill Wyko]

You may also want to look into a Festool Domino, it'll make your life so easy when it comes to making face frames. I've built a couple kitchens, my own out of Teak and another from Bubinga. While I didn't have a domino for either, I sure wish I did have one then. Here's a shot of some of mine, notice I included knots and various inclusions, I personally like the natural aspects of the wood.cabinet.jpg

[Joe Adams]

My advice on this project would be to get some pre-finished plywood to make the boxes. You should get some S4S lumber to make the faceframes yourself and then order the doors and drawer boxes from a millwork shop. You can finish all the hardwood components yourself so that they match. I've made scores of cabinets in my shop and learned a long time ago that it's more economical to outsource the doors & drawer boxes.

If I was doing this for my kitchen, I'd probably order the whole thing RTA (ready to assembly) and pre-finished from someone who sells Conestoga. The components are precision CNC cutout more precisely than you can do on a tablesaw or with a tracksaw. The factory applied finishes tend to be superior to those applied on a jobsite.

As for wood species - for a light finish I'd choose Hard Maple. For medium, I'd choose Cherry or Alder. For dark, I'd choose Walnut or Mahogany. For rustic, I'd choose Pecan/Hickory.

[Mark Kay]

You may also want to look into a Festool Domino, it'll make your life so easy when it comes to making face frames. I've built a couple kitchens, my own out of Teak and another from Bubinga. While I didn't have a domino for either, I sure wish I did have one then. Here's a shot of some of mine, notice I included knots and various inclusions, I personally like the natural aspects of the wood.cabinet.jpg

Nice work Bill! As for Festool, I simply can't afford any of their products, but you probably do get what you pay for. This job is really on a tight budget, so tight that I may have to wait months before I can get countertops after the cabs are made & installed (hopefully not years!)

[Mark Kay]

My advice on this project would be to get some pre-finished plywood to make the boxes. You should get some S4S lumber to make the faceframes yourself and then order the doors and drawer boxes from a millwork shop. You can finish all the hardwood components yourself so that they match. I've made scores of cabinets in my shop and learned a long time ago that it's more economical to outsource the doors & drawer boxes.

If I was doing this for my kitchen, I'd probably order the whole thing RTA (ready to assembly) and pre-finished from someone who sells Conestoga. The components are precision CNC cutout more precisely than you can do on a tablesaw or with a tracksaw. The factory applied finishes tend to be superior to those applied on a jobsite.

As for wood species - for a light finish I'd choose Hard Maple. For medium, I'd choose Cherry or Alder. For dark, I'd choose Walnut or Mahogany. For rustic, I'd choose Pecan/Hickory.

Thanks Joe. I only bought a few sheets of plywood so far, mostly to use for jigs and unseen (hidden, not visible) sides like for the pantries or for bottoms. One sheet was sold as "Mahogany" by my local yard, and it appears to be "finished" but the price is scaring me--I think I paid under $40 for 3/4". When I questioned the owner by e-mail, asking for an exact species name, all he could say was it was "Okoume." It's more on the pink side than brown side. It doesn't look like Lauan color. Does anybody know what this is? I also have a couple Baltic Birch 5x5's.

I did buy a bunch of hard maple to make the faceframes and have done the two pantry FF's as well as a couple of the 9" & 12" FF's so far. I thought hard maple could be stained or dyed to match just about anything, plus a lot of the faceframes will be overlayed by doors anyway.

As for farming out the doors & drawers, I considered that. But I already bought a fullsize router table, a coping sled for the rails, and two Bosch routers when they were on sale. (1617EVS & 1617EVSPK.) I also bought a Shaker bit set and many other profiles like beading & fluting & finger joint bits. Not to mention some 35mm hinge boring forstners.

For the drawer boxes, I have a dovetail jig I've been practicing on and getting it tuned in pretty well. I also bought drawer sides on ebay, 20 solid Birch drawer sides with routed bottom slots. They are drilled and doweled with a light maple finish, each are 17/32" x 4 13/16" x 23 3/16" so I can use 22" glides. They were around $2 each. I'll cut off the dowels. I was thinking of using BB plywood but this saves me a lot of work.

I originally spent months searching the 'net for RTA cabs, that's what I was going to go with, I had a spreadsheet full of styles & calculations (~$2500-$3500 depending on options), but there were always certain styles that were missing certain cabinets or accessories (some no cubbies, some no plate racks, no corner sink fronts, no 90"H pantries, some outrageous prices, especially crown mldgs & needing two pantries), or even lines that didn't have 9" wide cabinets. Conastoga was pretty complete though.

There would always be a need to make a few custom things and I don't think I'd be able to match the finish/color to RTA's. For example, besides having to buy a corner sink cabinet or a lazy suzan corner and tossing the lazy susan parts because of a sink, I would have had to use 12" wide drawer (or drawer base) between the sink & left pantry (subtract 1.5" for the plywood, another 2 inches for the glides & drawer sides, and you only have ~8.5" inside--even less w/faceframes.) By doing it custom and non-symmetrical, I can build an 18" drawer base that the sink overlaps 6" without any interference, plus the door opening to the plumbing is larger.

This is just one more reason to do it myself. Plus, at the end, I have the option to sell all the tools and still recoup a considerable amount of the cost because of buying them at the best prices. Or, with what I save, the tools were free.

[Greg Portland]

The expense and difficulty in selecting enough material to make attractive panels is daunting.

This. Keep in mind that you can source high quality doors & they will come finished. The finish that's used is better than the average hobbyist could spray in his/her shop. I've done two kitchens so far: on one I bought Ikea cabinets (the good ones), cut them to fit, and sourced the doors. On the other I bought the cabinets (online custom) and installed them. Building the cabinets is only a small part of the process! Most folks have a limited window of downtime (spouse will allow a non-functioning kitchen only for so long!). Don't worry, you'll get plenty of WWing in when you install the cabinets and trim.

If this is going to be a year long build process in the garage then ignore my previous comments.

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks for the compliment. When I built my kitchen, Teak was only $10.00 bucks a board foot, now I see it as high as $40.00 a BF. If you are going to take your time, make it a learning experience, play with joinery and other aspects of woodworking that can refine your skills. I had a blast building my kitchen. I was quoted over 10k to have it done, I did it for less than $1200.00 myself. (Back in 1999)

[Ole Anderson]

Dominos are cool, but as you know, very expensive. My suggestion? Get the $100 K-4 Kreg jig for pocket screws along with the Kreg vice grip style face clamp and the Rockler pocket screw clamp. Pocket screws make a joint so strong you would swear they are welded (if you could weld wood). And being on the back side of the frame are invisible unless you stick your head in the cabinet. Don't bother adding glue.

[Ben Hatcher]

If you started the ff with maple, you should probably make it all out of maple. Trying to stain it to match another species is not as easy as it sounds. Maple also tends to get blotchy when stained. A clear finish is easiest to apply, will help lighten things up, and will look very good with the style you've selected.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

Hi Mark,

First I applaud the effort of building your own kitchen. it is a big job, and can be quite daunting. But it sounds like you are quite patient, and are taking yoru time to study it and do it right. I've got dark countertops in my kitchen (soapstone, which I really like). the sink is stainless steel, although I've done the soapstone w/white sink in my last kitchen. Both of these kitchens I went with oak doors, slightly different finish/frame style etc. But both a semi-dark oak. I've got downlights in my kitchen now, 4 of them. Plus a large pendant light over the island, and lights under the upper cabinets for the countertops. I stronly recommend looking atyour lighting situation. It is easier to deal with it before you install new cabinets than afterwards. Kitchens need lots of light.

As for staining maple - that is tough! I thoght a blond wood like that would be easy to stain, but actually Maple does not take stain well at all.
I know you didn't specifically ask for this -but I couldn't help myself, as I've done a fair bit of kitchen work over the years...sorry if I go on too long...

Corner sinks are tough, they may seem great, but functionally are a bit tough to use. I've never liked them personally. I've installed a couple for clients, they seem happy but I'm not sure. The one you picked is definitely different from ones I've installed, so maybe it will work. I think you end up with too much counter material in front of the sink, or it is awkward to use the sink. Also, it looks like you have a bit of cabinet over the sink. This will make sink work tough, it will be hard to get over the sink. Think back on all the kitchens you have been in, and ones you have liked/disliked. have you ever seen a kitchen sink with a cabinet right over it? I'd go for getting the sink in front of the window.

Also look at your dishwasher location, it looks like you are going to have to run some drain and possibly some supply lines through the drawer cabinet that is to the left of it. this will shorten all those drawers.

Best of luck...and please keep posting as you go...

oh yeah, I second the idea of a kreg jig for face frames - if that is the style you have finally decided on.

[Mark Kay]

This. Keep in mind that you can source high quality doors & they will come finished. The finish that's used is better than the average hobbyist could spray in his/her shop. I've done two kitchens so far: on one I bought Ikea cabinets (the good ones), cut them to fit, and sourced the doors. On the other I bought the cabinets (online custom) and installed them. Building the cabinets is only a small part of the process! Most folks have a limited window of downtime (spouse will allow a non-functioning kitchen only for so long!). Don't worry, you'll get plenty of WWing in when you install the cabinets and trim.

If this is going to be a year long build process in the garage then ignore my previous comments.

Greg, thanks. Maybe I looked at things backwards--I wanted to tackle the doors before the carcasses. So I bought the router table, a Bosch 1617EVSPK router I can adjust from above the table, and the first bit set I think I bought was a Shaker rail & style set. I've since bought an Infinity coping sled so I'm all in it now--no turning back on the doors.

As for a year long build, I have been making changes in software and designing everything now since around 2009! I open the plan evey few days and try some new things, maybe more drawers or pullouts, etc. Who knows? Before it's finalized, it may even incorporate fold-down or pullout dog bowls!

But I MUST say, this is all being done IN THE HOUSE--no luxury of a wide open garage or basement. Out went the dry-rotted couch that was in the "parlor", the room only used when relatives came over, or where the artificial Christmas tree was set up for 2 weeks every year. Gone too are the relatives. The only thing left from the 80's is that old console stereo, now covered with nine Rubbermaid containers stacked and full of kitchen gadgets and cordless tools. Even the new fridge couldn't wait and the doors are back on it & it's running and functioning in the parlor, not too far away from the HF workbench. Even one of the upstairs bedrooms is now full of Rubbermaids & boxes. Thr Table saw is only a portable Bosch next to the TV right now, and the router table is almost arm length away from the recliner.

I guess you can now say I live & eat this kitchen project!

[Mark Kay]

Dominos are cool, but as you know, very expensive. My suggestion? Get the $100 K-4 Kreg jig for pocket screws along with the Kreg vice grip style face clamp and the Rockler pocket screw clamp. Pocket screws make a joint so strong you would swear they are welded (if you could weld wood). And being on the back side of the frame are invisible unless you stick your head in the cabinet. Don't bother adding glue.

Thanks Ole, I bought the K3 Master Kit when it was the top kit before they changed the name to the now K4--it was $139 minus a discount coupon I had from Rockler, I don't remember if it was $20 off or 20% off. I don't remember the difference between the K3 Master and the $99 K4 but I think 1 difference is the toggle clamp handle is on the front I think... plus it had other things like the vacuum adapter & other stuff. I also bought the vise-grip type clamp that goes into the pocket hole, if that's the one you mean--it only has 1 flat pad. I also bought the Rockler one too when it was on sale last year...