CLTT..need some input

[Rodne Gold]

Scott , are you sure the paper transfers a clear coat in its entirety to the substrate?
From what I have read and the vids etc I have seen it seems that its only the toner that transfers.
I could be wrong tho as I haven't done the process..if it is like that I would rethink getting into CLTT as I might as well just reverse print on clear vinyl and stick it on the substrate with a waterclear mounting film...

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm pretty sure. Some things you peel when cool, some when warm. If you peel something when it's warm that's supposed to peel when it's cool, you'll peel the clear off around the edges. That's what makes me say that. It could be something else happening, but that's my perception of it. Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding the entire process. If so, it's because some of the vendors don't do a great job and explaining any part of it.

[Richard Rumancik]

I'm really confused now. If the CLTT was transferring a "clear coat" or overlay over the whole image then you could not transfer foil to it like Rodne wanted to. Mike - can you clear this up? Is it bare toner that you are seeing on the metal or is there a selective or full-area coating on the graphic? Can you scrape it off with a knife? Martin suggests it will scratch off and can be removed with acetone . . . making me think it is bare. I have to agree the website leaves a lot to one's imagination.

I can't quite believe it is a full overlay though, as I did find a guy who recommended using CLTT for making circuit boards instead of using the PnP blue. Seems to me that if there was a film over the whole copper board he would not be doing too much etching . . .

Rodne - I agree that using an iron is a big part of the problem with the PnP Blue and similar. Non-uniform and unpredicable heating, no compliant pad or anything, just too many variables. But I suppose the DIY guys don't have the budget for a heat press. In all the discussions I have seen these methods work "some of the time". But I am looking for a process that works 99% of the time.

[Martin Boekers]

I'm not sure if Scott is confusing ink jet with laser toner. If you use toner just the toner will transfer.
As Mike said it should be a complete transfer any thing less and its a reject. I high quality press IS ABSOLUTELY
imperative for CLLT and dye sub, things have come along way from the tee shirt transfer of the 70's.

Scott, yes some items require a cool peel and others a warm peel, similar to vinyls. I think it has to do with the adhesion
property of the substrate. If you peel while it's warm it may not have good adhesion on some substrates as you pull the release
paper off. I do have to say before Magic Touch many that sold this type of transfer were no help. Magic touch has resolved any issues I had with their material.

[Martin Boekers]

As an addendnum, my brother owns an industrial screen shop and uses old HP's to print the positive on mylar
with. He says the old HP's are the best. He does use a product similar to this to build up the density,
Hmmmmmm wonder why I haven't tried that on finished pieces?????

Rodny you may want to consider an old HP monochome and get a black toner cartridge and a black sublimation one, then switch them out as needed...

www.rayzist.com/magicdark.php

[Rodne Gold]

Thanks once again for the great info , I'm releived to hear its just the toner that transfers.
We do have a few B&W laser printers at work , Samsung and HP, will give em a bash.
Does one set them to very dark when printing?
IS the Colour printers black merely just black or is it a cmyk type black (using all 4 carts)

[Mike Null]

I will try to describe the transfer as I see it. The CPM paper has a coating to which the toner is adhered. When pressed that coating comes off with the toner. On some substrates--plastic and metal, you can see fine striations on the image. I clean that with denatured alcohol then I post bake. With most hard surface materials I let the item cool before peeling. When using TTC you must peel the moment you remove the item from the press or it will stick and may not be removable.

In any case peeling should be done in a steady but careful and quick motion.

[Scott Shepherd]

I will try to describe the transfer as I see it. The CPM paper has a coating to which the toner is adhered. When pressed that coating comes off with the toner.

That's my view of it as well.

[Tim Bateson]

As Mike said denatured alcohol cleans it up real quick & easy.

[Richard Rumancik]

I will try to describe the transfer as I see it. The CPM paper has a coating to which the toner is adhered. When pressed that coating comes off with the toner. On some substrates--plastic and metal, you can see fine striations on the image. I clean that with denatured alcohol then I post bake. . . .

So the toner is "coated" with the carrier film from the transfer paper . . . I wonder what material actually is. Magic Touch probably won't say. Are you fellows saying that the coating dissolves in alcohol leaving clean toner behind? This would be necessary if one wanted to do foiling - otherwise the film would act like a contaminant with unpredictable results.

If you bake it does Magic Touch tell you to clean the film off before baking? Or do they address this at all?

Seems like they have a useful product but need to be able to communicate technical specs a bit better.

For etching I assume it would not be necessary to remove the film on the toner.

Scott - Mike seems to be saying that only the film on the toner gets transferred, but you originally suggested that a whole sheet of film was being transferred to the part. You could probably tell by looking at a sheet of the backing material - if the toner pulled the carrier off, it would leave a witness shape on the carrier sheet. Are you on board with Mike?

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - Mike seems to be saying that only the film on the toner gets transferred, but you originally suggested that a whole sheet of film was being transferred to the part. You could probably tell by looking at a sheet of the backing material - if the toner pulled the carrier off, it would leave a witness shape on the carrier sheet. Are you on board with Mike?

Who knows? I do know that there certainly is a witness mark where the material was, on the paper. If it's just the toner transferring, I'm not sure I understand why you can't just do a small section. They tell you the paper MUST cover the entire object. If it was just the toner going over, then it wouldn't matter. You could print a 1" x 3" strip, put it on a 8" x 10" piece and be okay. But they tell you the paper MUST cover the entire object. Just from seeing the film peel back, I had always thought it was a clear film being put over. Also, couple that with the fact that if you have a spec of dirt on the paper, and you press it, you can't wipe that spec of dirt off. It's like it's trapped there for good.

Like I said, I could be completely wrong. I have no reason to think I'm right or wrong, I'm just reporting what I saw and what I thought based on that. Don't even remotely think that I know what I'm talking about. Mike is the only person I've ever spoken to that educated me and we've never discussed this part of it, so I'm just speculating based on my experiences.

[Mike Null]

Guys, I am not the expert I'm being credited with being. I'm just offering observations as I have made in considerable use. The carrier has a very thin film which is transferred with or without toner to the substrate during the pressing. It is visible, though barely, which is why I clean it off with dna. (we are talking only the CPM paper) I believe the striations are caused by heat as the paper rolls around the oil fuser. I can't be sure this occurs with more modern machines as I have never used them.

The toner is somewhat brittle once heated which is why you want to be sure if you are running color to the edge of the substrate you go slightly beyond it. It's possible that when you peel it the toner may crack at the edges.

Coincidentally, I will be running 4 CLT jobs today. 2 name tag orders, a medallion for a perpetual plaque where I'll use ORD on clear acrylic and two plaques where Ill use CPM on brushed gold metal.

[Rodne Gold]

So when you clean it off with DNA, it's no longer there?
Saw on the foil video posted earlier in the thread that they CLTT onto a T-shirt and used the toner as the "glue" for the foil..maybe it's a different paper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTjeN...eature=related
from about 18.30 onwards. The use a paper called "exactprint" tho.
Here's a few sites re home made toner paper
http://www.radagast.org/~dplatt/hamr...sfer_paper.pdf
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/g...heap-easy.html

http://hackaday.com/2010/07/12/make-...ransfer-paper/
Look at the comments
At any rate , I will mail TMT and ask the question.
EDIT
I have just called Andre Beaudoin , the head honcho of TMT canada (the US guys werent there) and he says there should definitely NOT be any residue on the substrate or the toner itself , he says if there is temp or dwell is too high??? In fact he said he had an enquiry about foiling atop toner transferred just yesterday (one of the forum members perhaps?). He couldnt answer any question about how good it would be as a chemical or eltroetch resist tho..looks like I will have to try it and see...

[Mike Null]

Rodney

This is not a similar process to the links you have. The dna removes only the transparent striations remaining on the substrate not the toner.

[Rodne Gold]

I assume the striations on the substrate are remmanents of the "coating" or some thin film transferred from the paper after heat pressing, so if DNA removes this from substrate , it "should" also remove it from the top of the toner????
The sites for the home made toner paper were just for interest.