Looking for opinions/suggestions for dogholes

[John Donofrio]

Hello all,

I'm nearing completion on my roubo build and am having second thoughts on the dog hole location and spacing. My original plan was to have four rows of dogholes spaced about 4" or so apart. The idea was to be able to use the twin screw tail vise for panel glue-ups (pic attached). I'm now thinking this is a bit over the top and I'm not sure I want to turn the top into swiss cheese.

Has anyone configured a bench in this manner? If so, how well does it work for panel glue-ups?

I know as a minimum the front will have a full row of dogholes. Maybe a full front row with 4" spacing and then the other rows have 8" spacing since they would be used far less than the front row?

Ideas/thoughts/experiences?

Thanks in advance.

2013-01-08_18-33-52_297.jpg

[Mark Kornell]

Seeing as you're going with round dog holes, why not just start with the front row and decide later if there is a need for additional rows?

You mention using the extra rows for panel glue-ups. I have tried it, and have a few thoughts:
- The vise may not generate enough clamping force. And if it can, your vise face dog holes and/or dogs may not be up to the task.
- Where will glue squeeze out go on the bottom?
- You need to be careful of flatness. Your bench needs to be really flat. And, the tendency will be for the board to bow upward if there's any deviation from perfectly square edges. Even if your dogs are slightly angled inward.
- What will you do while the glue is curing?

[Jim Koepke]

Mark makes a good point. Why tie up your bench top while waiting for glue to dry.

My thoughts on dog holes beyond those that line up with dog holes in the vise is to have them spaced for use with holdfasts. This is helpful when working from the edge of a piece such as when plowing a channel or rabbeting the edge.

It is also helpful to have a way of holding a batten along the length of the bench. When flattening a length of wood or a panel against a stop it often likes to wander sideways.

jtk

[Kurt Cady]

Sweet bench! But we need more than a teaser pic! Dimensions, materials, progress photos, etc! C'Mon Man!

[Prashun Patel]

Instead of making it swiss cheese (although I'm of the mind that a bench can't have enough dog holes), you can make cauls that will go in between the dogs and the panel. In addition to reducing the number of holes you need to make, cambering the cauls will help get an even glue line. I would be leery of relying on the 2 screws on the vise to distribute pressure evenly enough.


As far as bowing, that might be a deal breaker for me, unless there is a way to use the bench and a caul on top to keep the panel flat.

[John Donofrio]

Mark,
I really think the vise would be up to the task of clamping a panel. This thing is a beast. However, your other points I think are legitimate concerns.

- The top is 'flat'. Perfectly flat? No way. Is there such a thing? Really flat? Possibly. Since I'm still relatively new to the neander world, I'm sure my technique is lacking.
- My plan for the squeeze out would be to place some rosin or craft paper on the top. I know it would be glued in places to the underside but it scrapes off easy enough.
- The last point is easily handled. Since this is a hobby for me, once I get the glue-up(s) in clamps I usually check the fridge to make sure it is still working if you know what I mean. This is also the time I do some cleanup. Still a very valid point if the fridge dies, there is no mess or I become more serious and have a real deadline.

Jim,
If I were to go with 4" spacing on the front row and 8" spacing for the rest, that would provide more than ample locations for holdfasts, etc. Would you agree?

Kurt,
Thanks for the kudos! I've thought about starting a thread for the build but my shop time is usually limited. Plus I'm still in the process of setting up the shop. I didn't want to start a thread and then find that I was not giving timely updates, I have tried to take pics at key points (and some not so key points) so maybe I can put something together soon.

[Adam Cruea]

I just installed a 24" twin screw Veritas on the bench I am building. . .no way I would use it to glue up panels. Granted the instructions have that as a possible purpose, but I'd much rather use clamps as much as I can and get a better glue joint out of it. Crank that twin screw as much as I crank my clamps down to get a good glue-up, one of two things would happen:

1) My dogs would dent the work piece or snap
2) I'd shear the drive pin on the non-master screw

That's just my opinion though. I still plan on a good amount of dog holes on my bench, though, because like Patel, I don't think you can have too many dog holes (at least, as long as the bench doesn't fall apart).

Though, just my opinion. . .with the 24" twin screw I have, I'll probably end up making dog holes around 8" apart. The vise opens far enough to do that.

[John Donofrio]

I think I'm going to take the advise of Mark and start with a full row of holes at the front. I'll add other rows of holes with each hole in line with every other or every third hole of the first row (as well as in line with the holes in the front jaw of the tail vise). This should give me enough locations for holdfasts and other fixtures. After the input I've received, I'm now convinced that using the tail vise as a panel clamp is not the best plan moving forward. I may experiment with it to see how well it works and then go from there.

The LV 3/4" brad pt bit arrived this past Monday so hopefully I'll be punching holes in this thing soon. I think I have a plan. I'll start with a few extra with the idea that I can easily add more but not so easily remove them. Still will have full row at the front.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,
If I were to go with 4" spacing on the front row and 8" spacing for the rest, that would provide more than ample locations for holdfasts, etc. Would you agree?

That would most likely do the job. For my bench the plan is to have the holdfasts being able to reach almost all the way to the edge. My decision has not yet been made if the holdfasts should have overlap or just a bit of space. More holes can always be drilled as needed.

jtk

[Trevor Walsh]

I did dog hole spacing as an increment well within the capacity of the vise motion, that way there is overlap between vise positions on the dogs, e.g. x length board could be held with vise at max extension and dog 2 or vise at minimum extension (not closed though) and dog 3.

Otherwise you could conceivably have a piece that can not fit between and dogs and the operable range of the jaw.

Other holes for holdfasts, I have three about 11 inches from the front equally spaced along the 5 foot length, 2 would have been enough though.

[Jim Matthews]

Given the space between the front and rear surfaces, a simple board in the middle will do for most applications.
Bob Rozaieski demonstrates (starting about 17:50) how his batten and planing stop work together.

I would consider boring a parallel set of holes in line with the end vise, with a spacing of 10 inches (or so) between them along the length of the bench.
With the hold fasts engaged to hold a batten, you could use sliding wedges to hold things in place.

The wedges could be made of varying size, to accommodate panels as needed.

I find I'm always using the same holes in my bench top and would only drill them as needed, the next time around.
Mostly, dog holes are where I catch shavings and keep my burnisher.

[Don Dorn]

Many would argue that I have too many holes, but I have a row in the front 4" OC and another mirror row 9" behind the first row. I also have three across the back. These hold a light, pencils and keep a Veritas hold down out of the way, but ready at any time.

This is my third bench and I''ve had it awhile now and I can't think of anything I'd change. I especially like the front ones because I use combination planes quite a bit and get even narrow pieces close to the edge for the fence. The next row lines up and allows me to put a batten with dogs across for a planing stop at any location. Additionally, it allows me to place a panel on the bench and lock it down for planing. So far, I wouldn't change a thing. For the life of me, I don't know how people get by with a single row in the front.

However, as the grandfather told the grandson "If we all liked the same things in this world, everyone would be trying to get at your Grandma."

[John Donofrio]

However, as the grandfather told the grandson "If we all liked the same things in this world, everyone would be trying to get at your Grandma."

That is classic.