Image transfer process

[Ernie Martinez]

I'm down in key west for New Year's Eve, and stopped into an art gallery where the artist transfers color pictures onto glass and aluminum. The glass is translucent so backlighting creates a very dramatic effect. The image transfers onto aluminum are amazing.

He was very secretive about his process but he did say that whoever does this for him uses a heat press to do the aluminum, so dye sub came to mind. The resolution and color saturation on both the glass and aluminum was stunning to look at and I would love to try it. He even had aluminum panels 4' x 8'.

My questions are:

a. What processes can do this?
b. can you do such quality with dye sub?
c. Can dye sub do 4 x 8 ?

These may be really dumb questions, since I have no experience in this field, but I was hoping some of you out there would know what I'm taking about. Here is a link to his website http://www.alanmaltz.com/

thanks

[Gary Hair]

Almost certainly dye sub. The vivid colors can't really be done with any other method, uv ink is flatter and any other direct print is not as vibrant as dye sub. Yes, you can do 4 x 8 with dye sub, you print the transfer on a large format printer and either run it through a roller type press or a very large platen type press.

Gary

[Martin Boekers]

There are quite a few process that can do this,

Dye Sub, but the material has to be coated to accept the transfer.

Laser Toner transfer, See Magic Touch USA

Waterslide decal, See Papillo

Yes Dye Sub can do 4' x 8' , but you need a large format printer and heat press.

There are UV printers that can print directly to glass, but $$$$$$$

There are thin treated aluminum sheets that can run through standard ink jet printers, I believe Horizon carries this.

Check with Conde for large format dye sub, as they will transfer to large format products you buy from them, reasonably.
Dye Sub is not archieval, so depending upon use it may not be acceptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkN0wQSXHQo


There are many sites out there, Google photo transfer, metal prints, large format prints.

This will keep you busy for a while!


Marty

[Gary Hair]

There are quite a few process that can do this

This was true right up to the point where he said

resolution and color saturation... was stunning

Those words eliminated CLTT (magic touch), UV printers and probably water slide as well. That really only leaves dye sub. Since he mentioned a heat press as well, that also leads to dye sub. You are quite correct about dye sub not being archival, but out of direct uv exposure it will last for years with little fading.

Gary

[Martin Boekers]

Each processes has it's issues.... Dye Sub is difficult to color correct, so you hope the profile gets a nice image.
I printed large format murals for over 20 years (yep enlargers and chemicals ) and I would have a tough sell on Dye Sub to
photographers, as a commercial photographer myself, I wasn't happy for the quality and consistancy. if I could create my own ICC
profiles that would be a bit different I imagine.

We did mount Ciba Transparencies to metal, glass, and acrylic, now that was real nice
and real $$$$ Now... I have seen some really nice stuff in the Ad Industry that was UV printed,
really nice, but then again, chances are it wasn't done on an $80k printer.

Dye Sub as for fading, I have untreated samples in my shop that show fading in less than a year,
Gel Inksets seem to last longer though. You can always treat it though with a laminated or UV protectant.

I guess the main reason I through out all the different processes is, I know Ernie is relatively new to this industry
and he likes to check out different ways to do things. Learning about the different methods will help in laeding the
customers to the most viable method for their project.

The other thing the quality of the image plays a huge part. After checking the posted site out, the photographer has
some really nice work, so that always helps when reproducing it!

[Scott Shepherd]

if I could create my own ICC
profiles that would be a bit different I imagine.

I had a guy come in and create one for me a year or so ago. Took about an hour. It's very simple, it just takes the right tools (which cost about $1,000 or so if I recall correctly). It was dead simple. Printed and pressed a color chart, he ran the scanner over it, it made adjustments, printed another one, did it again, and then one last time and it was hitting the color I needed for that job much better than any stock profile from anyone else. I only did one material, as it was only for a problem job I had, if I remember right.

Also, the gamut on the printer is probably the real limitation. Some things can help, like picking the right rendering intent to best deal with out of gamut colors.

[Ernie Martinez]

A lot of great info here, how about transfer to glass, specifically the back of glass, where the image is translucent?
Also when you guys say $$$$$$$ how many $$$$$$ are we talking $1000 or $100,000.
thanks

[Chuck Stone]

there are flatbed printers that can print on super wide format. 4' x 8' isn't uncommon.
and glass can be treated to accept ink. The printers aren't cheap, so .. send your file
out to be printed.

I've printed directly onto aluminum sheets and the results are stunning. The light goes
through the ink, hits the sheet and then comes back out, so you get colors you never
thought you'd see out of an inkjet printer. Your print becomes both reflective and
transmissive. You coat the metal with digital ground and send it through a printer
that has a straight pass-through. (no bends, no pizza wheels)

[Gary Hair]

Also when you guys say $$$$$$$ how many $$$$$$ are we talking $1000 or $100,000.
thanks

A friend of mine has a 5' x 10' uv printer that cost him just over $250,000 about 5-6 years ago. For something in the 12" x 24" range you are looking at about $30,000. I am contemplating the 30k version but I'm not sure if the primary customer I would buy it for can live with the colors since they are used to dye sub.

Gary

[Joe Pelonio]

I saw a Mimaki JF-1631 5'x10 flatbed printer advertised for $75,000, one year old used.

[Martin Boekers]

Mimaki had introduced a table top a few years back at $80K I say some sample pretty nice, Another company recently
introduced one for about $45k. Still a bit rich for my blood.

Most material have to have a coating to accept ink jet inks.

For creating ICC profiles, you need a desitometer and a profile creating software. X-rite is a goo densitometer $3-$4K
software not sure but probably starting $1.5k. Color management is a real beast!

Check to see if the there is a graphic shop in your area (sign and trade show graphics) they may let you come by and see
what they use.

[Scott Shepherd]

Marty, this is what he used :

http://www.pantone.com/pages/product...?pid=1340&ca=2

$1,200 list price. Seemed to work well.

[Chuck Stone]

If you're looking at densitometers, there's probably tens of thousands of used
X-Rite units out there. Think back a few years.. there used to be at least a few
one hour photo labs in every town. Every one of them had a densitometer, most
common was X-Rite or MacBeth. Many have a different name badge on them like
Konica or Noritsu, but used equipment brokers have these things cluttering up
their warehouses. I've bought used X-Rite 810's for $100, 880's for $50.
You might need to buy a new calibration plate, but the 810's tend to last forever.

[Martin Boekers]

Your right Chuck there probably are tons of them out there.

Scott, Pantone is the standard in the industry for color matching so that would probably be a good choice.
What amazes me is all the companies selling dye sub that they don't provide ICC profile for the product and
ink sets they sell. I know Conde does for $100 if you don't buy the printer from them. Seems like there is money
to be made here for profiles....

[Chuck Stone]

What amazes me is all the companies selling dye sub that they don't provide ICC profile for the product and
ink sets they sell. I know Conde does for $100 if you don't buy the printer from them. Seems like there is money
to be made here for profiles....

Having done profiles, I can kinda see why. There would be a different profile for every
ink/media/surface/machine combination. Not nearly as much as silver halide materials,
but it would still vary for any critical work.
(like Pantone spot colors) And that's after building a profile for input devices and for
the monitors.
But I would think they'd have a default profile for installing the machine, anyway.
They need to start with paper and inks, so at least that one profile should be a given..

I ran 6", 8" and 12" gloss, matte, semi gloss and transparency on a Fujix printer and
that was 11 profiles (no 6" trans) and had to re-do them each time a lot number
changed. (much like doing a paper balance/slope correction)