Which Face Plate screws?

[Brian Kent]

Thank you very much for these pictures. That helps a lot in seeing how to make a beefier recess on the bowl bottom. You do such marvelous work!

[Thom Sturgill]

Everybody seems to fuss that the Nova chuck tightens in the wrong direction. I think that is because they are designed to primarily be used in a recess. That is also supported by the sizing numbers as they relate to the expansion size.

Like Leo, I prefer to use a chuck in expansion for bowls (and in compression for spindle work), in my case against a dovetail recess as the nova jaws are all dovetail on the outside. I usually start between centers to form the recess or tenon, but if the blank is solid and large I will also use the worm screw as that allows better access to the bottom. It also allows the top face to register against the chuck so the blank is true, which can be finicky when setting up between centers. On the other hand, starting between centers allows you to control the grain orientation better for a more artistic result. I use a specially ground scraper to to insure that the recess dovetail is at the correct angle and the bottom is square to the face of the jaws.

[Doug Herzberg]

Hey Brian, to answer your original question, I use 1" #10 sheet metal screws, except with my 8" faceplate, which has holes large enough for 1/4" lag screws. That's usually overkill.

I'm with Prashun, as you practice and improve your tool skills, this will become almost a non-issue, at least if my experience is any guide. I've launched my share of blanks over the past year. I hope you're wearing protection. Bill Grumbine's DVD on bowl turning shows different tool techniques in a way that was easy for me to understand.

Know the inside and outside dimensions of your jaws or even make a go / no go gauge to get the tenon or recess you need. I have several $1.50 plastic calipers from HF and use them all the time. A tenon or recess doesn't need to be very long or deep, especially in hardwoods, but while you're learning, a little extra doesn't hurt, as long as it doesn't bottom out.

For the original tenon or recess, I've bounced from one technique to another. I'm currently on a worm drive kick and I like it because it's simple. One thing no one has mentioned yet is using a forstner bit to create a recess in the blank. This is also quick and easy and lets you reverse the piece more than once.

Be safe.

[Damon Stathatos]

From a guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...

For me, it's all about the wood and to minimize waste. I also want to end up with 'slabby' stuff, not eggshell dainty, and that's a whole other topic but is derived from my obsession to leave as much wood on the piece as possible.

If I start out with an x" thick block, I want my finished piece as close to the x"s as I can get. Screws typically yield x" minus at least an inch, add to that a tenon for the 'second stage' and you end up with a doubling loss. So here's what I do...

I run my blank over the jointer to get the ultimate top of my piece a flat face. I try to get the blank as perfectly square as possible. I draw lines on the diagonals. I mark the largest circle I can get with a compass, then bandsaw into a rough round. I then super glue a (as close to perfect) square, flat faced, non bottoming-out hardwood tenon to the piece using the diagonal marks to line up the four corners of the tenon. The geometry gets it glued pretty close to the exact center of the piece. I then chuck the piece up with the square tenon, the corners just sticking out between the gaps in the jaws. I think I once read not to use square tenons but looking at it after it's in the chuck, if there's a way for it to release, I have no idea how. The only way I can see it releasing is if the super glue fails which I've yet to have happen. I then get the piece roughly round on the lathe, leaving a bit of rounding left to do in the 'second stage' just in case the glued on tenon wasn't in the exact center, and finish the bottom with a recess. Then turn it around and have at it from the top.

This is the only process I've come up with to maximize the retention of as much of the thickness of the blank as possible and is also, for me, the easiest way to go about it. I cut the tenons in a couple of sizes and in quantities and leave them in my 'turning chest' for quick and easy availability. I can get from start to turning the round and bottom within just a few minutes, excluding glue drying time.

[Thom Sturgill]

Damon, not wanting to hi-jack the thread but I want to comment on your response. Try using the worm screw - it screws in the top of the bowl about 1/2" and since that gets removed when you hollow the bowl it uses no wood. Then cut a recess for the chuck as you stated. The recess gets used as the 'foot' or turned off when you are done. I have used recesses as small as 1/8" depending on the size and weight of the blank. The worm screw mounts in your chuck, and just about every chuck comes with one, so the chuck never gets removed from the lathe and it only takes seconds to mount. To me, the worm screw wastes the absolute minimum wood on thin blanks but I have used it to hold 10-12" bowls that were 5" deep. On a bowl that size a face plate would work too, but is more work. The faceplate screws would again be going into the waste wood area that is removed when you reverse into a chuck. It only needs to hold until you have the outside shaped and some semblance of balance achieved.

That still begs the issue of looks vs size. If you want the best grain pattern, starting between centers gives the most flexibility to modify the orientation of the blank. This is often needed with commercial blanks where they are concerned with getting the most blanks out of the log. If you want the largest possible bowl, or the quickest turning because you are a production turner, then the wormwood screw for smaller bowls or the face plate for larger bowls.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

From a guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...

For me, it's all about the wood and to minimize waste. I also want to end up with 'slabby' stuff, not eggshell dainty, and that's a whole other topic but is derived from my obsession to leave as much wood on the piece as possible.

If I start out with an x" thick block, I want my finished piece as close to the x"s as I can get. Screws typically yield x" minus at least an inch, add to that a tenon for the 'second stage' and you end up with a doubling loss. So here's what I do...

I run my blank over the jointer to get the ultimate top of my piece a flat face. I try to get the blank as perfectly square as possible. I draw lines on the diagonals. I mark the largest circle I can get with a compass, then bandsaw into a rough round. ( I then super glue a (as close to perfect) square, flat faced, non bottoming-out hardwood tenon to the piece using the diagonal marks to line up the four corners of the tenon. The geometry gets it glued pretty close to the exact center of the piece. I then chuck the piece up with the square tenon, the corners just sticking out between the gaps in the jaws. I think I once read not to use square tenons but looking at it after it's in the chuck, if there's a way for it to release, I have no idea how. The only way I can see it releasing is if the super glue fails which I've yet to have happen. I then get the piece roughly round on the lathe, leaving a bit of rounding left to do in the 'second stage' just in case the glued on tenon wasn't in the exact center, and finish the bottom with a recess. Then turn it around and have at it from the top.

This is the only process I've come up with to maximize the retention of as much of the thickness of the blank as possible and is also, for me, the easiest way to go about it. I cut the tenons in a couple of sizes and in quantities and leave them in my 'turning chest' for quick and easy availability. I can get from start to turning the round and bottom within just a few minutes, excluding glue drying time.

For hose that want to use "boards" to turn a "Bowl" from, be they 1,2,3,4 or more inches thick, rather than fresh green wood, I can see they would want to keep all that expensive bought wood, and two glue blocks would let them turn the wood without "wasting" more wood now, (as a lot of wood was wasted already to get those boards ).

However a square glued on "tenon" is still not a good way to hold it in dovetail kind of chuck jaws, the reason is that the corners are sharp and will dig into the wood and have very little hold, giving the wood a chance to start moving in the chuck while being turned.

Dovetail chuck jaws have only a very limited range where they do hold well, so either you have a whole slew of jaws and have to change jaws constantly (or buy a chuck for every set of jaws ), here's two pictures that show the shortcoming of dovetail jaws.


This shows the corners digging into the wood, and also the limited size that can be used in dovetail like jaws.
Dovetail jaws on square.jpg Dovetail on larger tenon.jpg

This (The above shown problems) is why I have chosen for the Oneway profiled jaws, so that rather than being forced to size the tenon/recess to the jaws, I can make the tenon/recess fit the size of the bowl and not need and change jaws for every chance in size, as these jaws hold well in their total opening/closing range, HTH

Chuck jaw differences.jpg

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Brian,
You already have lots of answers to your original question but I have yet another. First of all, I really believe in using a face plate in the early stages of learning bowl turning. I like it because it is the strongest way to hold a blank and until you get past bad catches you need all the hold you can get. Chucks are great and I wouldn't want to be without them but it's good to learn to turn a bowl without one. I often start big blanks between centers to align the grain the way I want it and to flatten a place for a 3" or 6" faceplate. I use #14 x 1" screws in my faceplates. I use screws with deep thread. On a big blank I might use up to 10 screws.
faust

[Brian Kent]

Well, I have had two successes in a row. What that means this time is the bowls did not blow off the tenon from the chuck. The size correction helped a lot (1/8" bigger than a closed chuck). I am also getting a little clearer on the angle of the bowl gouge and how to ride the bevel.

I tried one plain old Home Depot #10 x 1-1/2" phillips head screw on a pine jam chuck. Almost totally stripped the head the first time in. I put those back in a dark corner and used my longer McFeely's screws to start one bowl and the center bolt thingie to start the other.

Thanks for all of your input everybody.

[Ralph Lindberg]

I prefer "deck" screws, I've used both McFeely and Borg ones. Nice big threads.

[Jim Watkins]

Brian........whatever you do .......don't use drywall screws

Just curious Roger why you recommend not using drywall screws? I have been using them on small bowls and they seem to work good.

Thanks

[Roger Chandler]

Just curious Roger why you recommend not using drywall screws? I have been using them on small bowls and they seem to work good.

Thanks

Hi Jim........drywall screws have very little strength and they snap easily. The centrifugal force on a spinning blank is usually more that they are designed to handle. When I first started out, I used them also a couple of times, then I saw a thread about safety........I sort of ignored the warning.........the very next time I had 3 break off on me........the piece of wood was starting to come off the faceplate on that side and it also broke the tenon........

Mind you, I did have a bad catch that caused it all, but those screws are not strong enough for woodturning........Some folks may call this overkill a little, but I actually use #12 pan head screws 1.25" long most of the time. I also have some that are 1.5" long, and if the blank is endgrain mounted, I use the longer ones.

It is a safety issue.......you might get by with it a few times, but it can cost you big time in a ruined project or even worse, a serious injury..........best to pick up some good screws next time you are at the hardware store!

[Brian Kent]

Here is the fit that worked well according to the advise.

Tenon short enough that the jaws are up against the bottom of the bowl. Tenon just slightly larger diameter than the closed chuck.

Sycamore bowl, shellac still wet.

[Roger Chandler]

Looks like you have things working pretty good Brian. Glad to see the success you are having!

[Jerry Marcantel]

Thanks. I do have a nice chuck. My last two bowls have broken off at the chuck. One was gripped from the outside and another pushing out from a recess. It could be just bad coincidence with cracks. I have also tried starting with a spur drive, making the foot, then turning it around for the chuck, but the spur drive just spins.

Brian,
If you're having problems with your wood spinning with a spur, throw that sucker away and make yourself a chuck plate. You can find the article by going to "Articles" at the top of this page, click on tools, and then scroll down to "How to build a Chuck Plate" by Jerry Marcantel. Since I made my first chuck plate almost 2 1/2 years ago, I've only had to use a face plate and spur only once in that time frame...... The beauty of the Chuck Plate is you don't have a need to remove your chuck from the spindle.
As far as your tenons breaking, I had the same problem until I started making them to fit the largest size my chuck will allow. Since then, I haven't had a tenon fail...... ......... Jerry (in Tucson)

[Anthony Diodati]

From another guy who's also trying to figure it out and slowly stumbling his way through...............

This is what I have been doing too, but I have a little faceplate I use, I think it's about 3" diameter. But then it has a worm screw built into it. I got it at Craft Supply about 10 years ago. Looks like this.
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/...w-Center-Chuck

Damon, not wanting to hi-jack the thread but I want to comment on your response. Try using the worm screw - it screws in the top of the bowl about 1/2" and since that gets removed when you hollow the bowl it uses no wood. Then cut a recess for the chuck as you stated. The recess gets used as the 'foot' or turned off when you are done. I have used recesses as small as 1/8" depending on the size and weight of the blank. The worm screw mounts in your chuck, and just about every chuck comes with one, so the chuck never gets removed from the lathe and it only takes seconds to mount. To me, the worm screw wastes the absolute minimum wood on thin blanks but I have used it to hold 10-12" bowls that were 5" deep. On a bowl that size a face plate would work too, but is more work. The faceplate screws would again be going into the waste wood area that is removed when you reverse into a chuck. It only needs to hold until you have the outside shaped and some semblance of balance achieved.

That still begs the issue of looks vs size. If you want the best grain pattern, starting between centers gives the most flexibility to modify the orientation of the blank. This is often needed with commercial blanks where they are concerned with getting the most blanks out of the log. If you want the largest possible bowl, or the quickest turning because you are a production turner, then the wormwood screw for smaller bowls or the face plate for larger bowls.