Question on Epilog 3D mode vs Rabbit laser

[Joel Escallier]

Hello all, I'm new in this forum, and also new in this market of engraving. I still have no equipment, but in process to collect the most information I can.
The main use will be for my business, create name plate, or mark on steel parts with Cermark.
But if I get on engraver, I will also use for art work, and I would like to be sure to not make mistake.

One of my questions is to know more about the Epilog 3D mode which apparently recognize different color for different deep for engraving.
I approached Rabbit Laser and they told me they don't have such mode, and the only solution is to work with multi layer and to have different pass with different power (don't know if Lasercut is doing that). I don't know if this option is easy to use or more complicated than the 3D mode from Epilog

if some of you have experience of one or both options, I'm interesting to know more about your comments.
Thank you in advance
Joel

[Rich Harman]

LaserWorks V5 will do 3d engraving.

[Joel Escallier]

Do you mean Laserworks is compatible with Rabbit Laser engravers ? I thought that all jobs (Photoshop and others) are sent to Lasercut ? could you confirm ?

[Rich Harman]

I don't know. LaserCut and LaserWorks are very similar programs. LaserWorks V5 requires the "new" style main board (RDLC-320) that came out a year ago.

If it is true that the Rabbit lasers don't support 3d engraving then if you needed to, you could replace the main board and LCD panel and then run LaserWorks instead of LaserCut. Better yet, buy the laser that has the features you need from the beginning.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

One of my questions is to know more about the Epilog 3D mode which apparently recognize different color for different deep for engraving.

To clarify on Epilog's 3D function (and anyone correct me if I'm wrong): Based on the grayscale of an image, it will apply [up to] 8 differing levels of power. Contrast that with Kern's ability to run 256 levels...

Don't expect to make any money running 3D engravings unless the customer has a cane and a monocle. In order to achieve good results, you'll be making many successive passes which is going to be time consuming and ultimately kill your profits. If you're planning on using it for artwork/personal reasons, by all means go for it. My two cents...

[Joel Escallier]

Thank you for your input, every thing is helping.
I didn't know about Kern, went on website, and doesn't show any prices but as what I see, I would say I supposed we are not talking about same budget.
Does anyone know price range for those products ?

[Rich Harman]

Kerns are going to cost significantly more.

I would be very surprised if Epilog only does eight levels. Maybe you are thinking of 8 bits per pixel? That is the same as 256 levels.

[Scott Shepherd]

Don't expect to make any money running 3D engravings unless the customer has a cane and a monocle. In order to achieve good results, you'll be making many successive passes which is going to be time consuming and ultimately kill your profits.

One of my favorite quotes of all time on this forum. I also agree with it

[Rodne Gold]

All the programs will allow you to assign different speeds and powers to each colour in your drawing (most allow 16 discrete colours) , you could , for eg , have 7 entities all with different colours and set each to engrave at a different depth. It will do colour by colour ... until all are done..
3d engraving based on greyscale would normally be faster as the laser will make a single pass over the engraved area and will vary power on the fly.
What exactly do you want to use 3d for? As others have said , its a bit of a waste of time unless you have a very specific application.

[Joel Escallier]

as told, I don't have specific immediate goal but want to know how are the limit and the amount of work and time to create lot of different things. In other words I want to see where I put my foot in before :-)
I was looking at some example shown on Kern website or on this link http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectr..._tutorials.htm
In this one, it's more vector and not greyscale.
For greyscale could be picture of face of someone transformed in greyscale and engraved in a wood.
On internet we see lot of samples (finished), I would say very nice as marketing way to sell the engraver. The biggest question is to know all long and what skill it takes to create such.
Next week I will visit an Epilog distributor for demonstration, and will ask them to show me more details and more steps of 3D creation, just to understand more and see their limits.

[Glen Monaghan]

Chris, I think you are referring to Epilog's raster/vector color mode, where you can pick up to eight arbitrary 24-bit RGB colors and assign separate speed, power, frequency, air assist on/off, and specify whether it applies to raster, vector or both, on a per-color basis. When running in color mode, each color is processed in sequence. That's different than their raster-only 3D mode, where you set a DPI and speed with the gray scale value of each 8-bit pixel governing the power (blacker = more power, whiter = less power). When running in 3D mode, power is modulated on-the-fly in one pass.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Chris, I think you are referring to Epilog's raster/vector color mode, where you can pick up to eight arbitrary 24-bit RGB colors and assign separate speed, power, frequency, air assist on/off, and specify whether it applies to raster, vector or both, on a per-color basis. When running in color mode, each color is processed in sequence. That's different than their raster-only 3D mode, where you set a DPI and speed with the gray scale value of each 8-bit pixel governing the power (blacker = more power, whiter = less power). When running in 3D mode, power is modulated on-the-fly in one pass.

Nah, I did not mean color mapping. What I was saying is that there are limits to the varying power levels when doing 3D engraving with Epilog. I am 99% sure it's 8 levels *maybe* 16....I was trying to find the explanation somewhere in writing so that I could post it.

[David Fairfield]

Hi Joel

What you have described with the different colors in the graphic is color mapping, its a way to achieve different depths in your work, but its not the same thing as 3d engraving. Color mapping is more like setting different router depths. The Epilog 3d mode basically takes over the power setting and applies percent power matching the percent grayscale in the job graphic. It does this in a smooth transition from 0% up to 100% power (not 8 steps as mentioned above). It does work but, as others have said, it tends to be a slow process. And it works best when the speed setting is low, 25% or less. For most commerical applications its not economical, but you can do some cool stuff with it where time is not a factor.

The best 3d engraving I've ever seen was done on a Kern in hardwood, remarkable crispness, depth and detail. None of the typical grainyness inherent in laser engraving. Epilog and others might be wise to see how Kern is achieving this and build it into their driver or hardware. Epilog should also update their instruction manual, it has very little info on using 3d. All I know about Epilog's 3d mode has come from trial and error experimenting.

Also, its important to consider the level of artistic talent necessary to create graphics for 3d lasering. A simple geometric pattern is no problem at all, but 3d scenery such as on the Kern samples requires working with gradients and transparancies in graphics software, or using 3d software and converting back to a usable 2d graphic. Its not a matter of taking a photo and running it in 3d mode on the laser, although you can get some interesting results, you won't get a 3d model of the photo subject. Time invested in creating 3d graphics may be substantial.

Last, consider CNC router for 3d engraving. Inexpensive compared to a laser, and produces much more substantial output faster. An amazing tool better suited for larger 3d pieces.

HTH and welcome to laser engraving. Its fun.

Dave

PS made these 1/87 scale bottles from acrylic using 3d mode and a greyscale graphic. They are round in cross section, by 3d engraving half way through the material, flipping the piece over and running the job a second time.

bottles.jpg

[Chuck Stone]

Dave

PS made these 1/87 scale bottles from acrylic

you make me sick.

[Glen Monaghan]

Chris, no idea where you got the idea the 3D mode only has 8 (or even 16) levels. Some time back I ran a 512 pixel wide gradient with 256 steps linearly ranging in value from 0-255 at various speed/power combinations to test the 3D mode, and it made a very smooth ramp. Nonlinear as I recall, but smooth. The half from 0-127 looked pretty linear from the side, but the half from 128-255 flattened out and 255 was roughly half again deeper than 127 (e.g., about as deep as ~190 should have been had the engraving been linear the whole way). As it happened, I ran at least one test on wood and one on acrylic with a smooth 256 step gradient right next to a same sized but 16 step gradient just for comparison. I think the first 8 steps of 16 were pretty distinct while the last 8 were progressively harder to see, again due to the depth being nonlinear at the higher end - definitely no steps seen in the 256 level gradient.

-Glen