Kitchen Cabinet Build...looking to tap the minds of those that have done it

[Jeff Heil]

We are building a new house and I am planning on building my own kitchen cabinets and vanities after seeing the bid for cheap particleboard cabinets from the builder's supplier. I have spent time reading on SC and other forums as well as reading several cabinet building books from the library to try to get an idea what path to take. Have plenty of time with the winter season coming and the house won't be done until March or April.

I am planning on flat panel overlay doors with 3" wide rails and stiles and overlay drawer fronts, cases from 3/4 prefinished birch plywood and full extension side mount hinges on the drawers. I planed, straightlined ripped and jointed 250 bf of 4/4 cherry for the doors and drawers and FF's this weekend.

Looks like we decided on KV8450FMs on the small drawers and KV8505s or KV 8800s for the bigger (wider) drawers from WW Hardware. We discussed undermount slides, but don't like the price or losing some drawer depth. Thanks to everyone's posts on SC that pointed me that way, a much better value than other sources.

Debating between 3/4 poplar HB dovetail drawers on my Leigh jig and the "easier" way out, 3/4 birch ply dovetailed or dominoed with edgebanding, as my wife does not want to see the plys on the top of the drawer side edges. Planning to use waterbased poly to seal the drawers if I go with poplar. I am thinking 22" deep drawers in 24" deep base cabinets.

Debating between Blum Compact 39C with blumotion and the regular Blum clip top hinges. I like the ease of the FF mounts on the compact, but I am concerned about the larger gap the doors stand proud of the face frame. I ordered a set to try on my test laundry room wall cabinets. I will build the cabinet sides flush with the FF if going with the clip top hinges.

The trend seems to be towards drawers in base cabinets, instead of doors with pullouts. We have embraced that in our design.

Questions for those that have more experience than I do in this area:

1. Pantry unit next to fridge, 30" deep. Do I put a toekick on, or build to the floor? I don't see a need for a toe kick here, but don't want it to look odd. Building a frame and panel side on the pantry and the side of the fridge.

2. Build vanity units to fit standard sink tops available at the the big boxes? Plan calls for a pair of 42" sink bases in master, 55" in main bath...we are thinking goto 36" and 48" to use off the shelf quartz tops with attached undermount sinks is more cost effective than ordering a custom top.

3. With cabinet doors do I need both hinges to be blumotion, or can I use one with blumotion and one without, being cheap i know, cost difference isn't huge.

4. Any design concerns with our proposed plan below? 36" uppers with 42" next to microwave. Thinking two big drawers on bottom of pantry next to fridge and pullouts in middle of pantry unit. Island will have trash pullout on left of sink base and DW to the right.

5. Any other tips or insight is appreciated.


MasterBath with linen cab_102212.pdfKitchen Plan.jpg

[Jeff Heil]

Master Bath plan for vanity with linen cabinet to replace two 36" units with makeup area. Screen Shot 2012-10-22 at 7.40.52 PM.png

[scott vroom]

See comments

We are building a new house and I am planning on building my own kitchen cabinets and vanities after seeing the bid for cheap particleboard cabinets from the builder's supplier. I have spent time reading on SC and other forums as well as reading several cabinet building books from the library to try to get an idea what path to take. Have plenty of time with the winter season coming and the house won't be done until March or April.

I am planning on flat panel overlay doors with 3" wide rails and stiles and overlay drawer fronts, cases from 3/4 prefinished birch plywood and full extension side mount hinges on the drawers. I planed, straightlined ripped and jointed 250 bf of 4/4 cherry for the doors and drawers and FF's this weekend.

Looks like we decided on KV8450FMs on the small drawers and KV8505s or KV 8800s for the bigger (wider) drawers from WW Hardware. We discussed undermount slides, but don't like the price or losing some drawer depth. Thanks to everyone's posts on SC that pointed me that way, a much better value than other sources.

Debating between 3/4 poplar HB dovetail drawers on my Leigh jig and the "easier" way out, 3/4 birch ply dovetailed or dominoed with edgebanding, as my wife does not want to see the plys on the top of the drawer side edges. Planning to use waterbased poly to seal the drawers if I go with poplar. I am thinking 22" deep drawers in 24" deep base cabinets.

Debating between Blum Compact 39C with blumotion and the regular Blum clip top hinges. I like the ease of the FF mounts on the compact, but I am concerned about the larger gap the doors stand proud of the face frame. I ordered a set to try on my test laundry room wall cabinets. I will build the cabinet sides flush with the FF if going with the clip top hinges.

The trend seems to be towards drawers in base cabinets, instead of doors with pullouts. We have embraced that in our design.

Questions for those that have more experience than I do in this area:

1. Pantry unit next to fridge, 30" deep. Do I put a toekick on, or build to the floor? I don't see a need for a toe kick here, but don't want it to look odd. Building a frame and panel side on the pantry and the side of the fridge. My preference would be to include a toe kick.

2. Build vanity units to fit standard sink tops available at the the big boxes? Plan calls for a pair of 42" sink bases in master, 55" in main bath...we are thinking goto 36" and 48" to use off the shelf quartz tops with attached undermount sinks is more cost effective than ordering a custom top. There was a reason you designed 42" & 55" vanity bases. If budget doesn't allow custom sized vanity tops then I guess you're gonna either go over budget or change your design. Your call.

3. With cabinet doors do I need both hinges to be blumotion, or can I use one with blumotion and one without, being cheap i know, cost difference isn't huge. We're talking a couple of dollars difference. Go with 2 Bluemotions per door and give up beer for 3 days...oughta cover it.

4. Any design concerns with our proposed plan below? 36" uppers with 42" next to microwave. Thinking two big drawers on bottom of pantry next to fridge and pullouts in middle of pantry unit. Island will have trash pullout on left of sink base and DW to the right. Ask your wife what she prefers then do that.

5. Any other tips or insight is appreciated.


MasterBath with linen cab_102212.pdfKitchen Plan.jpg

[Jeff Heil]

Thanks for the comments Scott. I have read many of your posts on this subject. We are also discussing a 60" vanity for the master with double sinks with a side unit for towels etc, to better use the same space. We have the budget for the custom size tops, but I am trying to stay under budget here as my wife liked the quartz countertops she saw for the kitchen, that are WAY over the cost of the high res laminate we initially discussed.

Does anyone "turn off" one blumotion so the doors close a little faster, but not slam shut? We put a set on one cabinet in the current house and it seems it closes slow with both units on. I think I will do both as blumotion and have the flexibility to turn one off, assuming it doesn't cause problems with the door.


I agree wholeheartedly with you last comment, she has already decided what goes where in the new kitchen.

[Paul Murphy]

"1. Pantry unit next to fridge, 30" deep. Do I put a toekick on, or build to the floor? I don't see a need for a toe kick here, but don't want it to look odd. Building a frame and panel side on the pantry and the side of the fridge."

I would consider a toekick on your pantry. A child's or pet's toy in front of a door or drawer without a toekick can often prevent access. Also, the vacant space behind a toekick is great for either a leveled base, or shims to level your pantry.

Think about a tip-out "sponge shelf" in front of your kitchen sink. They are great for hiding the small clutter items, and yet they are conviently available.

I like the undermount soft close drawer slides, and have seen the soft close mechanism is now available for side mount slides as well. If I were building a new kitchen for myself, every door, and drawer would be soft close. With an open floor plan the noise level from the kitchen can make quite a difference.

[johnny means]

I always try to get homeowners to think twice about melmine coated particle board. Now I'm not talking about the garbage used in borg cabinet construction. Quality MCP from a good supplier is better suited for kitchen cabinet construction than prefinished ply. Quality thermofused melamine is far more durable than the poor finishes used on prefinished ply. Long after prefinished plywood is worn through and stained, melamine will be like new. Melamine can be cleaned and sanitized with no ill affects. Prefinished ply will eventually be damaged by cleaning. I have built miles of cabinets for schools, restaurants, hospitals, doctors offices, and government buildings of all sorts, and can tell you that MCP is the material of choice for cleanliness and longevity. In fact, hospitals insist upon MCP to meet cleanliness standards.

[Bill White]

Never used 3" stiles and rails. Mostly 2".
Great idea about the drawers everywhere possible. I ALWAYS suggest that, and used it in our home.
Toekicks everywhere is my method.
Consider the new style taller vanities if ya haven't thought of it already. 32" old height is just too low. I hate standing on my head while brushing my teeth.
Bill

[Paul Johnstone]

Debating between 3/4 poplar HB dovetail drawers on my Leigh jig and the "easier" way out, 3/4 birch ply dovetailed or dominoed with edgebanding, as my wife does not want to see the plys on the top of the drawer side edges. Planning to use waterbased poly to seal the drawers if I go with poplar. I am thinking 22" deep drawers in 24" deep base cabinets.

I guess it depends on the width of your drawers.. But on a 24" or 18" wide base, I think drawer boxes made out of 3/4" thick material would look out of scale.. I would use 1/2" plywood there. Also, if you're making your drawers out of plywood, consider a drawer locking router bit. Once you get it set up, it's very fast, strong, and it's attractive as well.

Put a toekick on every base unit, IMO.

You know.. if you have the budget to get custom sized tops for your bathroom, I'd do it.. It sounds silly, but an extra 6" of counter space in the bathroom is really nice. With all the labor you are putting into this, why not customize it to exactly what you want?

I'm in the middle of redoing my kitchen now (replacing exisiting cabinets piece by piece).. I really don't like base cabinets with doors and pullout trays. I know the "pro" is that the trays can be adjusted.. However, there's a big con.. People (at least my family) do not always fully open the door before pulling out the tray. .This has banged up the door interior on the builder's grade cabinets.
Thus, most of my base units will be all drawers. One will be a door with fixed shelves.. Going to all drawers will save time too, it's less labor than doors and pullout trays (IMO).

Well, that's my 2 cents, but keep in mind, I'm just an amatuer like you.. I'm about 1/3 complete on my kitchen.

[Richard Coers]

Definitely add the toe kick to the pantry. If you walk up to get something off the back of a shelf, you will stub your toe without one. That being said, I never build the toe kick into the box. Toe kick is built as a seperate assembly. Makes tilting up and installing the pantry much easier. If I had my way, I would never put a door on a base unit except for the sink. I put two oversize drawers in one unit in our kitchen after much "discussion" with the wife. They get more use than any other space. Adding a sliding shelf behind a door is even sillier. Just make drawers to start with. I would definitely build the bathrooms for stock tops. Maybe a few inches higher for the master bath too. I like to have wider rails than stiles. It gives a better balanced look to me, and the extra width helps with strength in the cope and stick joint. Can't help with the other questions, I haven't used that hardware. Biggest mistakes I made in our kitchen, plastic lazy susan shelves in two corner base cabinets, and using precatalized lacquer for a finish. Lots of stress shown in the finish around the stove and dishwasher. It just doesn't hold up like the literature says.

[Jamie Buxton]

Tell me about the stove hood. You're going to find a hood insert that's less than 12" deep (I've never noticed one of those), and put it below the microwave? If so, it isn't going to draw well from the front burners. I'd go with a more conventional hood that's 20" deep or so.

I'd also put the microwave someplace where it isn't so high. In its present spot, it'll be difficult for shorter people to see in, and to pull out hot dishes.

[Sam Murdoch]

I like the basic kitchen layout but to be a contrarian, in regards to toekick I would most definitely build the pantry to the floor without a toe kick. Toe kicks do serve a good purpose and Richard's comment about giving you a bit more reach is valid but how much more reach? If you need to get to the back of the top shelves can you do that anyway without a step stool? I don't get the impression that you will opt for pantry pullout hardware so a step stool might be a necessity in any case for the pantry as well as for above the refrigerator.

My resistance to toe kicks are 1) They take up useful space. 2) They create a real nuisance for cleaning unless design to allow complete clearance for your basic vacuum cleaner floor brush attachment. In your case - the way you drew it with the arrangements of the side panels- you could build a 2 drawer base at floor level (which can easily be leveled by removing the bottom drawer) then stack your other cabinets above. Install and construction of this 3 cabinet unit would be easy. In fact I would build it as
1) base drawer unit. 2) Main center pantry unit. 3) Upper cabinet with attached over refrigerator cabinet.

My only other design comment is about the placement of the microwave. Unless this is your only venting of the cook top below I think putting a microwave over the cooktop/range is trouble waiting to happen. You do need to vent the cook top so I can't argue against this too loudly if it is your only solution but here are my general objections: Safety, Safety, Safety, Safety. Especially if you have kids - this is too high for a microwave but even if there are only adults in the house reaching over a hot cook top to use a microwave oven is a bad plan. I know people do it all the time but that doesn't make it a good thing. You should be able to take a hot container out of a microwave and place it immediately on a counter below or to the side. Can't do that with the spaghetti pot on a full boil. The first time you spill your bowl of hot chowder onto the cook top as you pull it from the micro you will know the secondary reason not to put the micro above the stove. Back to the safety issue - with kids in the house there should be no reaching over their heads for hot items. Use a space maker micro under the upper cabinets or make an open shelf in the island or even the pantry cabinet.

Otherwise I think you have lots of good feedback provided above. It will be a great new kitchen and bath. Nice design.

[John TenEyck]

I second the comment about using melamine for the cabinet interiors. I built mine out of MCP nearly 20 years ago. They still look great; easy to clean and almost no signs of wear, stains, chemical attack, etc. I finished off the end of each run of cabinets with an end panel to match the doors/drawers, so you only see the melamine when you open the doors. I also used 5/8" thick melamine for the drawer boxes, for the same reasons. Look great (to me, anyway) and easy to clean. I put them together with biscuits - not one failure in almost 20 years, and my slides aren't soft close. If you don't like melamine, I would use 1/2" or 5/8" (if it's available) for the drawers, and edge band the top edges if you don't like the look of the plies. Finger joints look great with BB plywood, IMHO, and that makes an incredibly strong drawer box. As for the slides, I would only use soft close ones these days. For that matter, I'd only use undermount ones. Yes, they cost more, but not that much more, and not much at all compared to the whole project.

It's personal taste, but frameless cabinets will give you a lot more actual storage space, especially with the drawers. With your overlay doors, frameless would work great. I would only use the Blum Clip style hinges, and softclose of course. The FF hinges often only adjust in 2 axes, while the Clip style adjust in 3 axes, plus they lay closer to the cabinet as you mentioned. Also, they are easier to get on/off, which doesn't matter after it's all done, but is a big deal when you're installing the cabinets.

When I built my kitchen I didn't have spray equipment. I did a pretty good job, but a sprayed topcoat would have looked better, and saved a LOT of time, too. Whatever finish you use, make sure it's KCMA rated. I used a WB poly over an oil stain, and it still looks good after almost 20 years. The WB technology is so much better now, and that's the route I'd go especially if I were spraying.

I found your comment interesting about time not being a factor. It took me about 4 months to build my 27 cabinets, doors/drawers, while working a full time job. With that in mind, March is coming up fast. Good luck, and keep us posted. We love pictures.

John

[Larry Copas]

I just completed a similar project. Well the kitchen is complete, but work still in progress on the bathrooms.

About an equal number of pull outs to drawers. Drawers got full extension slides but the deeper pull outs got 3/4 extension slides. Saved quite a bit with that decision and I feel not much sacrifice. Pull outs also had Blum bumpers to try and prevent beating doors to a pulp.

Pull out bottoms all got standard laminate on them as they will be used for pots and pans. A few of the drawers also got laminate on the bottom.

I knew going in I would need a lot of shop space for all the boxes. Just forgot quite how much. Since the house is conditioned space I was able to lay out my raised panels and drawer fronts to let them acclimate there before finishing.

[William C Rogers]

Jeff

I am in the middle of doing the same thing. I am building laundry room cabinets with a large pantry, kitchen cabinets, and bath room cabinets. I started on laundry room first as I knew there would be a learning curve on a lot of things. It is a big project. I am just about finished with the laundry room and will take that experience for the kitchen cabinets. I have pull outs in the pantry which is 6 foot wide and 8 foot tall (one big cabinet). I am putting in a toe kick. The reason I am using a toe kick is that I think the bottom would get "beat up" over time from kicking it. Hope to post some pictures early next week. I am going to use pre-finished ply for the cabinet insides as a choice of looks. Just do not like the look of melamine. I am doing flat panel shaker doors with 2 3/8 stiles and 3 inch rails. I did 2 inch FF for the laundry, but will do 1 1/2 for the kitchen. I am doing the laundry room with soft maple and doing all the drawers with soft maple. Laundry room drawers are either 3/4 or 5/8. I am using 1/4 maple ply for light drawer bottoms and 1/2 ply for heavy drawers. The 1/4 ply has a mdf core. I did dovetails for all the drawers and pull outs using a Incra dovetail system. I have since bought a Leigh jig for all future drawers. I am using poly on the laundry room cabinets and will use it for the kitchen drawers. I will use pre cat lacquer on all exterior parts for the kitchen. I have use the drawer lock system before, but prefer the look of the dovetail. I also used ply for drawers, but didn't like putting the banding on. So I will stay with solid wood. For the kitchen, I have decided on the Blum soft close 1 1/4 overlay compact hinges for the doors and blum undermount soft close for the drawers. Drawers will be 5/8 either maple, ash or poplar. The FF and doors will be African mahogany, pre finished maple for the insides. My island will be very similar to yours except I will put in a trash compactor and will have post on each end of the overhang. All of the cabinets I am making are tongue and groove, using pocket hole only for the FF and a few places in the back. I have gotten a lot of good information from this site, and even if not used made me think. I am most likely the only one who will agree 100% with all my choices. Regarding tools, in addition to the Leigh jig I just bought, I bought a drum sander and for the compact hinges I bought the Somerfield Easy Bore for the blum hinges. I really like having both of these tools. This is what I am doing right or wrong.

Bill

[Michael Weber]

Agree with Paul. 3/4 is too thick. It will look odd. Use 1/2 material for drawers unless they get huge, then use 5/8. Although somewhat wasteful, I planed down 3/4 stock to 1/2 for the kitchen I built because I also didn't want plywood.