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Thread: Sliding table saws - Hammer and Mini Max

  1. #16
    One thing to consider would be the weight of a large slider and how you could get it in a basement shop. Large sliders are typically close to or over 1000lbs. I had a combo machine with an 8.5 ft slider and went back to a traditional table saw as mostly I do furniture, not case work. Quality was not an issue (had a minimax and it was excellent), but preferred a ts and am ok crosscutting with a mitre or sled.

    George

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Panagopoulos View Post
    One thing to consider would be the weight of a large slider and how you could get it in a basement shop. Large sliders are typically close to or over 1000lbs. I had a combo machine with an 8.5 ft slider and went back to a traditional table saw as mostly I do furniture, not case work. Quality was not an issue (had a minimax and it was excellent), but preferred a ts and am ok crosscutting with a mitre or sled.

    George
    Closer to 2000 lbs. Dave

  3. #18
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    Michael, both Felder and MM users have yahoo groups. Check out www.solowoodworker.com for Charlie Plesums site. He is a MM guy with good practical advice. David Best wrote a handbook that is the Felder Bible for setting up machines. He has a website as well. Dave

  4. #19
    I have a K3 with the 48" slider and it's the perfect length for me. I can really only see needing the 78" if you do a lot of case work. I normally cut down boards to a manageable length before it's processed at the J/P. What I really like is the ability to cut a straight ripped edge by using the slider with the rip shoe and the eccentric clamp at the other end. I would redesign the clamp to get away from using the hex bolts since it's a pain to loosen and then tighten the bolts every time you need to move the clamp. A couple of eccentric mini clamps would be a much better solution. I had a Laguna Platinum TS before this and there is no comparison. This thing is a beast and will around longer than I probably will be.

  5. #20
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    I own a Hammer B3 Winner with a 49 inch long sliding table.

    It's in a small shop, and I opted for the optional outrigger table which I only install when working with sheet goods or long solid pieces.

    I also have scoring on it, dado capability, and a power feeder on a flip up bracket.

    The shaper spindle is tiltable, and I opted for the tenon hood/table as well.

    The really nice thing about the small sliders is that they have a form factor like a cabinet saw, so they are very comfortable to use when ripping.

    The longer sliders can crosscut larger items, however my small slider will crosscut a sheet of plywood, and of course straight line rip a 49" long piece. With a simple jig and an accessory strip from Hammer it will straight line rip an 8' piece.

    I can't say enough about how great the Euro sliders are compared to the General 650 saw I owned previously.

    Add the sliding table to the tilting spindle shaper and it's incredible.

    I suggest that you very carefully list all your needs, both present and future. Options are normally only factory installed, however accessories can be added at any time. Plan wisely and you'll never need another machine. Do not rush this process as you will regret it.

    As to Felder/Hammer versus MiniMax, all good products, both great companies. Obviously a 900 series Felder is nicer than a Hammer or MiniMax machine, with a nicer price tag attached. Same of course if you buy SCMI equipment.

    As to the wait, well I ordered my B3 and told Hammer that I wanted it in 4 months because I had a General saw and shaper to sell. The saw lasted 3 minutes, the shaper 10, then I had a wood working free time period......LOL..........Out smarted myself there.

    You are making the correct decision by heading down the Euro slider path, take your time, choose carefully, once you have the machine you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago............Rod.

  6. #21
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    Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

    If you do, what are your experiences?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Koons View Post
    Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

    If you do, what are your experiences?
    I'm not Rod, but I dado with my Knapp saw shaper so some observations might be proporietary to the saw but some will be relevant enough for you to ask questions when you buy.

    My machine allows a dado blade- I use a Forrest- by removing a disk approx 20+ mm thick to make room on the arbor. You remove the throat plate, remove the disk, reoplace it with another thinner one if necessary and put on the dado. My saw has a dust shroud that must also be removed with an 8" dado but not a 6" so you can guess what size I use. The dado requires you to adjust the crosscut fence to compensate. If I did lots of case work I would figure out a combination of shims for the disk to keep the fence reference the same as I hate moving it. You want a reference- a stop or something- that allows you to return it exactly to zero when reinstalling the regular blade. You also want good clamps to hold the ply down along it's entire length so the depth doesn't vary. Going back and forth is a pain so organizing the cuts is important. Every saw is a little different so find out the details of each model. Dave

  8. #23
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    A contrary opinion...

    I've had a craftsman TS, a tilting table INCA, then an INCA 12" with an Excalibur sliding table added, then a Laguna TSS.

    My opinion on sliders has changed completely over the years. I'm now convinced that unless you deal almost exclusively with large sheet goods, you're better off without the slider. It takes up a lot of space, it's expensive and, as mentioned above, can be a real pain to adjust back to 90 degrees as you move the fence on and off the table.

    A really nice PM66, Unisaw or the like can be had, used, for about a third of the price of the euro sliders. A well made cross-cut sled will cover precision cut offs and dadoes aren't a problem.

    Just one person's opinion but something you might want to consider.

    Doug

  9. #24
    Mike,

    To your question of whether or not the slider gets in the way when locked and using like a traditional saw - my thought is no it doesn't. As Rod does, I generally have the "small" miter guage in place most of the time and only use the larger outrigger table when cutting something where I need the extra support. My large table hangs on the wall in my shop next to the saw when not in use and only takes a minute to put on the saw when needed. If I had more space, I would probably leave the larger table on all the time, but I don't have the luxury.

    When I rip, I try to use the sliding table as much as possible. I do this as I find I get great quality rips this way while keeping my hands far from the blade. When a board is too narrow to use the sliding table, I usually slide the miter fence/larger outrigger table away from where I stand (these can slide down the slider so as to move out of the way simply by loosening 2 knobs in case you are not familiar). While I stand a bit more to the side of the saw then I did with my Unisaw, I don't find using the slider like a traditional saw causes any issues. If anything, I find for me it is better as I now have a real riving knife and a decent guard and I probably don't have to lean over as much as I had to with my Unisaw.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Koons View Post
    Thank you Rod. Do you do any dadoing on your slider? I'm guessing not since you have the shaper.

    If you do, what are your experiences?
    Hi Michael, I use the dado function on my saw as often as I did with a cabinet saw. (I've always had a shaper, just not a tilter/slider like I have now).

    I use a 6" FS Tools dado blade on my machine, it works great, the only issue is that I don't have a guard when I dado, however I'm going to add an over arm guard, just like I did when I had a cabinet saw. (Same issue with all cabinet saws, no protection when making non through cuts with standard guards).

    The slider is actually safer when dadoing as I can use the clamp to secure pieces to the table and keep my fingers away from the blade..........Regards, Rod.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by doug faist View Post

    It takes up a lot of space, it's expensive and, as mentioned above, can be a real pain to adjust back to 90 degrees as you move the fence on and off the table.



    Doug
    ???

    Doug, my outrigger table comes off the machine in about 20 seconds with no tools, and goes back on in the same manner.

    My crosscut fence has 90 degree stops front and rear position, and the precision mitre system which uses a locking pin for common angles.

    No adjustment required at all............Regards, Rod.

  12. #27
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    Just be aware that if you go for a Hammer K3 slider that you need to specify if you want it to be fitted with the dado set up. Which costs a bit extra. As David's Knapp there's a removable spacer on the saw spindle with the dado prepped version. You leave it in place when running with a saw blade, and remove it to make room for the dado cutter.

    It's not economically retro-fittable as the stock saw is fitted with a solid spindle.

    It's maybe also worth saying that the scoring option has to be specified too. So far as i know there's two versions - one as mine that is driven by a belt from the saw spindle and which runs as long as the saw spindle is running, and another with a separate motor on a separate start/stop button...

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 09-21-2012 at 6:27 PM.

  13. #28
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    I prefer my slider for dado and rabbet operations, I use a short crosscut fence for dado's, it works great and is very safe. I'd also want a longer slider if you can, nothing beats loading up a sheetgood and cutting it to specs in a matter of minutes. Given your shop dimensions, I see no problem with an 8' slider. I use a Forrest dado on my Felder and it cuts wonderful. I'd also recemmond an outrigger with your purchase, I know its an option on the Hammer saws, but its really nice to have for sheetgoods, they come off easily giving the machine a pretty small footprint when you dont use it. The only thing I dont like about my slider in comparison to the PM2000 I used to own, is ripping solid stock, I dont get as accurate of rips with my slider as my Powermatic. It may be operator error as ripping on the right side of the saw blade is still a little awkward for me on a slider. The "leg" that sticks out for the longer slider does get in ones way when ripping.

    I'd highly recemmond giving the Hammer guys a call, I deal with Fergus on the west coast, nothing but super service from them.
    A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. My desk is a work station.

  14. #29
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    About two years ago, I seriously considered a K-3. I ultimately “opted out” primarily due to the amount of space that the slider would consume in my shop (approximately 24’X18’), plus a medical issue.

    You may have already done the following or thought about it -- make a large scale drawing of your shop, and cut outs for the equipment, cabinets/benches, etc. Then consult the makers’ web sites for the footprints of the saws under consideration and make the appropriate cut outs. You might be surprised as to the floor space needed for these saws.

    Personal experience speaking: I run a 25 year-old Uni-saw. At one time I installed an Excalibur slider (or was it an Exaktor?) slider. Took it off as it consumed just too much space. Instead, a Fe$tool circular saw and track breaks down sheet goods. A well constructed dado jig and a router just might serve you just as well as a TS and dado blade set.

    I would also ask both makers if they know of any local shops with their saws. Nothing beats an on-site visit to view the machine and talk to the operator(s). I would also read through the on-line owner’s and set-up manuals.

  15. #30
    Hi everyone, Hi Mike,

    I'm going to keep it short and sweet and jump back out of this discussion for obvious reasons. Just wanted to clarify a few points and give a quick explanation. No, the SC3W does not dado. If that's a "must", the machine to look at is the SC4 Elite, which is available in both 5.5' and 8.5' lengths. The whole "dado or not"-thing, in regards to our saws, is dictated by the slice of the pie a given machine occupies in the US market. As we all probably know, dado is a US-only thing. What Italy does is look at the percentage of sales of a given machine in the US Domestic Market, versus the rest of the globe, and then decide if it is worth it to retool the production line for a dado saw group for that machine. For example, the very popular CU300 combo machine has almost an identical saw group to the SC3W, but the US sells CU300's at a ratio of about 5X-6X to the SC3W. This would mirror my personal sales experience. I do sell quite a few SC3W's each year but most of them seem are going to contractors and shops (the SC3 was "the" small slider in the industry for a long time, so many pro's either owned or worked with it and I get calls to the effect of "I want one again"...) and these shops more commonly are doing Euro-style frameless cabinets, so dado irrrelevant. Statistically, I have more home guys buying 8.5' sliders than 5.5', so the factory does make a dado saw group for those. Anyhow, just those quick comments and I'm outta' here!

    Thanks,

    Erik Loza
    Minimax USA

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