Sliding table saws - Hammer and Mini Max

[Michael Koons]

I'm not totally sure of the protocol here, but starting a new thread. I was the OP who started the PM2000 vs. G0691 discussion. But since that post went so far afield, I decided I'd start a new thread given that I'm changing the subject. I hope that's ok.

Given all the feedback I've gotten, I am now seriously considering upping my budget and getting either the Hammer K3 or the MM SC3W. I'm not 100% set on it yet, but had some questions for those of you who use sliders. A lot of the slider threads on SMC seem to be pretty dated.

My shop is not huge, it's a basement shop that's 16'x26'. I will not be keeping my old TS while having the slider at the same time, so my slider will be my ONLY TS. What do I lose by ditching the traditional TS?

I do a lot of dadoing on my TS and would like to continue that on the slider. I think the slider will help even more for dadoes given the fact it can take panels. I had heard the MM cannot take dado blades, so this could be a concern.

The MM rep has been EXTREMELY responsive and the Hammer people have not even responded to me yet. I'm a bit disappointed in that. The MM person has told me that he has a unit he can ship out in a day. I had heard Hammer takes several months to ship. I'd prefer not to wait until the winter to receive it, but again, I'm not sure given Hammer won't call me back.

Lastly, I'm 45 years old and I'm hoping this is my last TS purchase. I would expect with a high end American style saw to last me forever. Can I expect the same from European slider?

Do people have opinions on sliders in general or these 2 models specifically?

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike

[David Kumm]

Both companies are high end and more than the equivalent of the traditional saw makers. Both the MM guys, Erik and Sam are great to deal with but the Felder guys are good too. Their lack of response is probably a glitch as they are generally helpful. I don't know about the dado capability on the MM. While the longest slider is the best, I am also a fan of the short stroke-30-40" ones unless you do a lot of case work. The short sliders are easy to rip using the fence, the longer ones work better ripping on the slider and then a long one works best. If space is a limitation I would look at the short ones and not worry about giving up any benefits in comparison to the traditional. Talk to each rep about the ease of returning the fence to square as you will be removing it a lot and having to tweak it back to 90 is a total pain. there are also used and demo units to be found. Grizzly makes a short stroke slider as well but I don't put it in the class of the Euro stuff. A used K500 would be a good deal as it has the Hammer internals with the X roll table. Dave

[Ralph Butts]

Michael I would tend to agree with David on the responsiveness issue. I have had the best experience with the folks at Hammer on the west coast. I have also had a good experience with the MM folks. I did kind of get blown off on a J/P question that I never got answered by MM but hey stuff happens and people get busy. I think that you are looking at two offerings that you will ultimately be happy with if you select one of them. I recently purchased an A3 41 J/P back in August and it is scheduled for delivery 1st or 2nd week of October. It is what it is. Disappointed about the delivery time but extremely confident that I purchased the best machine for me and my constraints so the wait is the wait. Hammer has(d) a sale going on and I was looking at K3 perform and a K500 S. I ultimately have not pulled the trigger on the slider for several reasons first of which is that I am contemplating purchasing a new home with a huge existing shop. After the research I did I was heavily leaning toward the new K500 S since it was on sale. However a stumbled upon a lightly used K700 in my area on CL. I gave me pause to pull back on the stick and wait things out a bit. The two Hammer machines you are looking at will support dadoing with the purchase of the option. I currently own a Grizz 623x I like it. I recognize it for what it is and have nothing bad to say about it keeping the previous sentence in mind. I find myself working with more and more full sheets and for that type of work it is a PITA. It does however do dados without issue. I am branching out and finding more ways to make dados to avoid the blade changing evolution. I currently do not have the space to support the larger sliders so this was a good compromise for me. If I would have been presented with a similar deal on a K3 I would have gone that route.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I'm a very happy Felder CF 741 owner, and wouldn't willingly go back to old school tablesaws. A slider saw will change the way you work. It made me a lot more efficient. It did take a little bit to adjust and figure out the best approaches to each task. In essence you have the ultimate crosscut sled and sliding jig holder built into a really good saw.

One thing that I love about my Felder is the electronics. I'm not positive that Hammer uses the same thing, but the blade brake and softstart are awesome. Makes me smile each time I use it.

You can't pick wrong, both of those companies sell premier products and support it well.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've dealt with the east coast Felder people, and they are generally great. I bought a used K975, and added the scoring option onto a 5 year old machine. The price was the same as the new option (no massive upcharge), and what they gave me was COMPLETE. I did not even need to strip a wire.

If you are getting a format saw, you want to consider a shaper built in. This will allow tenoning, both small and large in no time flat. I've even thought about getting another shaper just to park next to my saw to share the slide. Also molding, doors, etc.

As for the slide, once you try it you will be very impressed. SAFETY, stability, speed. I used my saw to chop up some 3 inch thick boards a few days ago into chair parts. I started with a board about 3 by 15 by 10 feet, (just poplar, nothing exotic) and it was rough chair parts in no time. No muscling the machine, just push as fast as you want to go. I've got a felder rip blade, which is great. Very quiet, just push as fast as you think you want to go.


Plywood- there is no comparison. Get the scoring if your focus is ply or melamine, if you are a solid wood guy, you could just as well skip it. I would rather have the shaper than scoring. Very nice to crosscut dado from the slide

As far as safety goes, when my son was using the saw for his school project, I pointed out that his hand was on the slide, several feet from the blade.

I've also got a tiny inca table saw that I like very much, but thats a different story. I have a slide for that saw also, though.

[Michael Koons]

Thanks for the information Stephen (and everyone else).

Quick question, if I can use a dado, can't I do tenons and grooves with the dado and forego the shaper? I know the shaper can do more, but for these two specific functions, I was hoping the dado would do the job.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I would get the longest slider you can. Maybe it is a personal work-habit thing, but I don't see any negatives about a longer slider while I see various shortcomings with a shorter stroke. With your size shop, I would go with at least an 8 footer as you have plenty of room. I have a small shop and at first thought my slider was too long, but after using it for a while I am glad I have the capacity when needed. I went from a Unisaw to a slider and have grown to love the slider (MM CU300 in my case). I would check with MM about using a dado as their web-site just might not mention it (it doesn't say anything about dado blade capability on my saw but in fact I can run a dado). Both are good companies with good products.

[Michael Koons]

Thanks Mike. Does the long slider get in the way when it's locked in place and I'm doing traditional TS work?

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks for the information Stephen (and everyone else).

Quick question, if I can use a dado, can't I do tenons and grooves with the dado and forego the shaper? I know the shaper can do more, but for these two specific functions, I was hoping the dado would do the job.

Yes, you can do tenons with a dado. First one side, then the other, then fit it to the mortise using a shoulder plane. With a shaper you can cut two cheeks at the same time, with the spacing between the cutters matched to the mortising tool. One aspect of the hammer machines I think is that they are 30 mm for the saw arbor and the shaper spindle, so a groover could be shared.

8' slide is nice, if you can get it in the basement.

http://davidpbest.com/va/stonehorses...on_cutting.htm

[David Kumm]

Thanks Mike. Does the long slider get in the way when it's locked in place and I'm doing traditional TS work?

Yes it does to some extent and you have to get used to it. That is why I prefer a real long-10 ft or real short slider. My 80" slider is my least favorite to rip with but for two other reasons. Blade guard is attached to the riving knife which makes some fence rips awkward, and because the table is relatively short the crosscut fence needs to come off. You get a short slider if you plan to use the saw in the traditional way most of the time and only crosscut periodically. If you crosscut a lot and do panel work a long slider allows for ripping referencing off the slider and generally the crosscut fence can stay in place. You need a lot of room for a long slider but if you have it and can get it in the shop there are lots of used commercial sliders in the 3000-5000 range that are way way heavier than the Hammer or MM. There are a fair number of used 78-80" sliders of the Felder 700, MM st-4 variety out there but very few used short sliders. The mid size works if you use mainly 60x60 baltic birch but is my least favorite size- although 8' is a close second as it isn't long enough to fit clamps on either end which I think are important with big sheets. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

to fit clamps on either end which I think are important with big sheets. Dave

http://www.kregtool.com/Large-Bench-...-Prodview.html

I have a big felder clamp, which is nice, also, I use one of these kreg clamps on the far end for sheets. Cheap, and works pretty good.

[David Kumm]

http://www.kregtool.com/Large-Bench-...-Prodview.html

I have a big felder clamp, which is nice, also, I use one of these kreg clamps on the far end for sheets. Cheap, and works pretty good.

Look at www.airtightclamps.com Dave

[ian maybury]

I've a relatively recently commissioned Hammer K3 Perform panel saw with the 8ft slider and as yet unused scorer. (not sure if the Perform is still sold in the US, it's the version with the longer cabinet under the slider)

It's definitely not in Altendorf or the like territory so far as solidity of build/weight of parts is concerned, but so far I'm very happy.

It needed careful setting up after delivery (the US situation may be better), but proved to (a) be capable of this (it had flat tables and the like), and (b) it's so far held it's adjustment. My take is that it's an accurate and well made machine, but probably not one that you would put in a commercial shop where two guys would horse sheet goods through and abuse it all day.

One limitation is that whether it's the Hammer carbide tipped dado set, or say a traditional Forrest bored to suit the limit (for clearance) is about 7in - with 6in being the only option in the latter. It won't accept an 8in dado set, or at least if fitted it will hit part of the blade tilt hinge as it nears fully raised.

The slider takes a bit of getting used to (it's still new to me), and there's stuff like parallel bars for setting up cuts off the slider that can be useful - but it's already obvious that the slider is a huge step forward. The machine is basically a panel saw, but it's not obviously disadvantaged in any way that I've so far found on small work. Take care when you choose a slider length - the length they specify is the total length of the slider, and not the capacity as I for example thought. i.e. if you want to clamp down an 8ft panel you need a somewhat longer slider to accommodate the clamps. +1 on buying a long slider unless you are very sure you don't need it.

I bought one Felder clamp, it's very heavily built and quite expensive. Many of the FOG (Felder group) guys use the Airtight (?) pneumatic clamps from one of the site members - they seem to work very well with sheet material. I made some rather less fancy DIY slider clamps from large F clamps which also work well (see below) - the T nuts are routed from phenolic. I'm also running an Incra TS LS fence, a DIY rip table and an adapted Incra Mitre 2000 HD, but haven't used the stock items and so can't say how they compare.

The Incra stuff works well and is accurate (i wanted the repeatable positioning capability) but fitting involves some labour. It seems a good match in terms of its level of robustness in comparison to the build of the Hammer.

The saw + spindle combo option seems to be a very good choice with minimal downsides - both in terms of space saving in a small shop compared to having a separate shaper, and in terms of cost. Especially if for any reason a long slider is useful for your shaping work.

ian

clamp in use.jpgdiy T nut.jpgoverview k3 incra 100se.jpglow res ts ls overall view.jpg

[James Baker SD]

I heard some people say when you order a Felder or Hammer and have to wait for it, it's as close to the Christmas morning as a kid you can get as an adult. :-)

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a 20 year old MiniMax slider that has never broken, and this is in a commercial setting. My other equipment is mostly SCMI/MiniMax, And the only part any of them have needed was new dust boots on my SCM 520S.

I have never owned a Felder/Hammer, so I can not comment other than I drove 500 miles to a dealer on a prearranged appointment, and when I got at the scheduled time there no one was there. It was bad for them and great for SCM.

Larry