Aftermarket Chip-breakers (Which is Best?)

[James Bird]

Ok so I have been doing A lot of research as to which atermarket blades and chip breakers are best. Now the options seem to be Pinnacle(IBC), Lee Valley, Hock, or Lie-Nielsen

The common consensus is that
A) Lee valley's blades are extremely flat due to there machine lapping process and they are 55 bucks for the blade and breaker combo
B) Hock is the original and the blades are not as flat, require maybe 20 plus minutes of lapping, also 55 dollars a set from one retailer, more from others.
C) IBC/Pinnacle is most expensive and is ALMOST as flat as lee valley, infact they make ALL of lee-valleys plane blades but i believe that lee-valley may lap the blades in house after they are recieved from pinnacle, the caveat here is that apparently pinnacles chip breaker is somehow superior due to its added tabs, but is also the thickest and requires filling the mouth of the plane
D) Lie-nielsen blades must be good, but they are more expensive and well I cannot find out much info on them, it would seem most people buy elsewhere

What I wanna hear from you all is....

A) who has the best chip breaker.... is the hock chip breaker better than the lee-valley? and how does the lie-nielsen compare... from what I hear the blades from lee valley are the best way to go... but if their chip breaker isnt as good as hocks... maybe the BEST or ULTIMATE combo is a LV blade and a Hock CB... any thoughts?
B) how do the lie-nielsens compare? how is the finish on their blades, are they worth the extra money, and is their improved chipbreaker better in any way than the LV or Hock? and if so whats different?
C) when it comes to pinnacle, is it worth getting that thick of a blade/breaker combo over the lee valley that is already quite thick? or is it just redundant at some point to make things THAT thick? especially seeing as you have to file the mouth and not to mention the cost is almost double that of the LV combo and hock combo... is it worth the cost? and if it is or isnt than why? what do you like or dislike about them?

Anyway, I know this is a lot of questions but I think this thread (if it gets good responses) could turn in to a great one stop spot for people looking into buying a new aftermarket blade/breaker set. and settle once and for all who makes the best blade, and who makes the best breaker, and that it MAY NOT be the same maker for both... (meaning one makers blade and another makers breaker may turn out to be the best set-up)

... also forgot to mention clifton... any thoughts on them are welcome... but I really don't think they are practical due to their higher price and finicky stay-set cap iron.

thanks!
-James B.

[Jim Koepke]

Anyway, I know this is a lot of questions but I think this thread (if it gets good responses) could turn in to a great one stop spot for people looking into buying a new aftermarket blade/breaker set. and settle once and for all who makes the best blade, and who makes the best breaker, and that it MAY NOT be the same maker for both... (meaning one makers blade and another makers breaker may turn out to be the best set-up)

My recollection is the last time a thread like this got started it became locked and deleted due to the heat of the moment. Who would have thought grown men could get so passionate about hunks of iron?

It is similar to discussions on whether a Ford or a Chevy is a better car.

It also gets into the unknown world of what is meant by "better."

All my planes seem to work quite well with Stanley blades. Some have Hock blades with Hock breakers. They work fine and the blade's edge is able to work longer between sharpening sessions.

A well tuned Stanley chip breaker works fine. One or two of my Hock blades are set up with Stanley chip breakers. The Hock chip breakers and most likely others are well tuned from the supplier.

Just a note on my personal choice, I met Ron Hock at an LN Tool event and he was a very kind person. It was meeting him and Thom Lie-Nielsen that have influenced my loyalty to them when it comes time for me to make a purchase. I have not met Rob Lee, but his support of this forum, the quality of Veritas products and the customer service when there was a problem with my order has also led me to be loyal to Lee Valley.

It feels like I am doing business with good, old friends.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I don't know if the lapping process LV uses is new or not - I feel like when I first ordered a blade from them it didn't have that funny look to the back, but I could be remembering wrong. But after ordering a new blade from them recently, I'm pretty much sold on their blades - no back flattening is required, basically, outside of removing the burr.

As far as breakers go, honestly, for me it's always come down to whoever has whatever else I need to order at the time to combine on shipping.

I actually kind of prefer the old-style breaker, I don't really know why. But on any plane I use more than one blade on, I'd prefer to have a breaker for each blade. I haven't fussed with the two-piece breakers, but the idea sounds finicky to me.

IBC's breakers sound promising - moving the engagement for the blade adjuster into the slot for the plane blade obviously makes thicker blades viable for older planes. But it's not because I'm sold on thicker blades, but because I've got planes where the adjuster is worn a bit, or just was never a great fit to begin with, and I imagine that would help take some of the slop out of the mechanism. Having never used one, however, I could be totally off.

[David Weaver]

a) it really makes no difference, all of them work fine. You have to do a little bit of work to the edge of any of them as far as I've seen, but even if you don't, the amount of work you have to do isn't worth worrying about. I think the IBC cap iron is mildly hardened. For a hobby woodworker, hardened or not, it doesn't make a difference. I have seen warren mickley (who is the only person I know who has used a cap iron intentionally to mitigate tearout for a very long time) mention that he hasn't done anything to his in a long time (as in, it isn't wearing out or anything). If the cap iron isn't breaking a chip, it really isn't wearing.

b) Lie nielsen irons are good, their cap iron is fine, too. They are all either A2 or O1, whatever they specify, and aside from LV's O1, they are all similar hardness spec. Consider any difference in price to be your cost to call that specific company. For practical purposes, the performance of the irons from all the different companies is the same.

c) I personally don't think you want an iron that thick in a bench plane. If it's needed over a stock thickness iron, something isn't set up correctly in the plane. You'll have to decide for yourself if that's the case. After years of using thick irons, I am using a stock thickness iron and a stock stamped stanley cap iron in my smoothing plane. I do think most beginners will prefer a thicker iron if their plane gives them room for it, just because it does cover up some minor tuning issues. Once you're past those, though, it is marginally faster to sharpen a thin iron, and not so marginally faster to do it if you grind your iron on a coarse stone or on sandpaper.


I kind of inferred from the last public IBC vs. LV explosion that LV is no longer buying irons from IBC, but who knows?

[bob blakeborough]

Just a note on my personal choice, I met Ron Hock at a LN Tool event and he was a very kind person. It was meeting him and Thom Lie-Nielsen that have influenced my loyalty to them when it comes time for me to make a purchase. I have not met Rob Lee, but his support of this forum, the quality of Veritas products and the customer service when there was a problem with my order has also led me to be loyal to Lee Valley.

jtk

I haven't met Ron Hock or Thom Lie-Nielsen, but I have have had the fortune to meet Rob Lee and I can say he is also very much like you described the others. Super nice, helpful and kind. I was at the antique plane event LV just did and Rob was there. I remember we were all lined up waiting for the doors to open and one fellow brought his little boy with him. The little guy was a bit overwhelmed with all the people and was pretty nervous and shy and hiding behind his dad. Rob was out talking with all of us and tried talking with him a bit and you could see was was still not responding. Rob just smiled, slipped inside and returned with a sweet little wooden coffin plane and slipped it to the little boy as a gift. That put a smile on the kids face! I thought that was pretty cool of him...

[Jim Koepke]

I kind of inferred from the last public IBC vs. LV explosion that LV is no longer buying irons from IBC, but who knows?

That was also my feeling, but as you say, "who knows?"

jtk

[Don Dorn]

I think this could be a good thread if posters don't get overly passionate per Jims comments.

My planes are all over the place. In addition to a couple having original Stanley equipment, I have both Lee Valley and Hock in both irons and breakers. I have found that the LV irons are indeed more flat than Hocks as they come to you and perform perfectly. They are easy to sharpen and hold an edge well. Frankly, that's not critical to me as I use a slight back bevel to make sure that both sides of the iron see the same polish. Too lazy to get a ruler out, and it adds too much time so I just lift very slightly.

That said, if pushed - my preference is the Hock irons. There isn't a great difference, but for some reason, I'm able to establish a burr faster and they hold an edge as well as the Lee Valley's. In my test now and then, I take the iron to receipt paper and for some reaon, the Hocks just want to fall all the way through. As to breakers - I'm not sure it makes a difference as both are machined very well and fit the irons perfectly. Really, can't go wrong with either choice for irons or breakers.

[Tony Shea]

I agree with David as far as the blade quality goes. I have a Hock, LV, and LN in my Stanley planes. They all perform perfectly. The Hock blade may just eek out in performance as far as holding it's edge longer. But this is very minimal and really is not anything to do with what brand it is. The hardness on each blade will vary ever so slightly no matter who makes them as long as they are hardened correctly. The Hock blade does feel a bit more natural in my stanley vs. the others, another personal preference.

I don't necessarily agree with David's opinion on replacement blades. I personally think that getting a replacement blade in a Stanley can be a huge improvement over the original. I my experience, many of my original stanley blades are all over the place as far as quality is concerned. Their edge holding ability is sometimes good and most of the time bad, compared to Hock, LV, etc. I do agree in that the thickness of the blade shouldn't play that big of a role in the plane if set up and bedded properly, which I understand is the point David is making. But as he said, sometimes for a beginner it's just easier to throw in a new well made blade and see if the bargain stanley plane will actually work.

[James Bird]

b) Lie nielsen irons are good, their cap iron is fine, too. They are all either A2 or O1, whatever they specify, and aside from LV's O1, they are all similar hardness spec. Consider any difference in price to be your cost to call that specific company. For practical purposes, the performance of the irons from all the different companies is the same.

when you say "aside from LV's 01" they are all similar regarding hardness... what exactly do you mean, can you specify on this for those who have no experience? again as someone who just lurked in the shadows reading the last 6 years of posts from all of you guys who have commented so far and a few others, I would like for this thread to be kind of the last word on replacement irons for those other members who do the same thing I did, searching for days on end to find the answer to simple questions like this... I am trying to unlock the knowledge so to speak that can only come from experience, the type of experience all of you guys have, and we, the readers, just wish we had...

[David Weaver]

Well, I wasn't advocating stock irons, I was advocating irons closer to stock thickness. I terms of feet of planing per sharpening, I would assume that an A2 iron will last about twice as long as a stock stanley iron. Brent beach did a comparison, I think.

The results would be better for the stanley if you could find a hard one, and worse if you found a soft one.

I don't think we're going to see a return to thin stock style irons (with better edge holding) any time soon, the sales of goods are generally driven by people who are accumulating tools, and that's not going to be the most skilled users, it's going to be users building their skills (and nothing wrong with that).

I still have a smoother with a 1/4" iron - it's fantastic to use.

I also have a #4 sized millers falls (two, I guess) that works really great with the tsunesaburo replacement iron, which is thinner than stock, I think. The plane has to be set up properly for it, which is no big deal if the chipbreaker is being used, the mouth doesn't need to be tight to mitigate tearout like that. It's really a delight to use, and the iron is the best combination of easy sharpening and great edge holding that I've seen. It sharpens as easily as an old stock stanley iron, and you can grind it by hand on a medium stone if you want to.

Anyway, TMI on some of that stuff, the irons that are made now definitely hold an edge longer than the vintage irons. I'd suspect a lot of that had to do with what most people were using to sharpen planes (and especially do the coarse sharpening or grinding) 75-100 years ago.

[David Weaver]

when you say "aside from LV's 01" they are all similar regarding hardness... what exactly do you mean, can you specify on this for those who have no experience? again as someone who just lurked in the shadows reading the last 6 years of posts from all of you guys who have commented so far and a few others, I would like for this thread to be kind of the last word on replacement irons for those other members who do the same thing I did, searching for days on end to find the answer to simple questions like this... I am trying to unlock the knowledge so to speak that can only come from experience, the type of experience all of you guys have, and we, the readers, just wish we had...

LV specified a hardness a few points lower for O1 than they did A2. (I think the O1 is 58-60 and the A2 is 60-62 or something - it doesn't sound like much, but if they average spec, you can notice it on the stones.

I think they were tipping their caps to the folks who use arkansas stones by doing that (even really hard carbon steel can be a nuisance on arkansas, without it being one of the more exotic steels with lots of chromium, etc in it). Hock, on the other hand, makes their O1 iron super hard.

I think if a lot of people could get over the idea of spec buying, they would really like the hardness that the LV O1 irons are made to, which is still plenty hard. The range of hardness that george talks about preferring is somewhere right around 58, where a good hard file will only just cut the steel (a file generally won't cut steel at 62 hardness).

[Dale Cruea]

I have older Stanleys with a stock blade/chip breaker setup that works great. I have LN planes with LN blades/chip breakers and I have old Stanleys with Hock blade/chip breakers that work great.
All work fine for me. I don't care for the Hock blades much. Mine blades came with the backs so far out of flat I am still trying to get some nice and flat. Hock chip breakers did not fit well to the blades as did the LN.
I don't own any other blade/chip breakers.
The best one I think I have is on a LN #3. The chip breaker is an old style like the Stanley. Works great as a smoother for me. Very thin shaving and no tear out most of the time.
The best blade/chip breaker for older Stanley planes for me is the stock ones. I will only replace them if the blade is bad.
I agree with most in that the tuning of the plane is a bigger issue than the blade/chip breaker manufacture.
I would likely buy any of them as a replacement.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have Hock, LV, LN, and Clifton blade/chip breakers and I think all are very good quality. The Clifton two piece chip breaker can be a little difficult but it works well. I like my Clifton blades the best, I can get them extremely sharp and they hold an edge very well.

[Terry Beadle]

I've got LN and Clifton. Both are excellent. Both hold an edge very well. I do give the sharper edge to the Clifton. I've had not problems with the two piece Clifton stay set chip breaker. It needed almost no setup and has worked for years in my #3 Clifton.

That said, the LN LA Jack blade is just the cat's meow on end grain. When readjusted, and it's very quick at that, it can do excellent smoothing too.

In my old Bedrock #605 is a Ron Hock. Totally excellent. Retains an edge and with an initial sharpening on a fine grained diamond stone and followed by a series of water stones, it's very easy to get back to work even if you've nicked it on a hidden stone or nail. I've even got an old Stanley wood bodied transitional with a Ron Hock blade.

Pick any, or either , or one...you'll smile and relax as the shavings go by.

Are we spoiled or what ! Enjoy the process !

PS. I see I've wandered off subject of chip breakers. I'm using stock Stanley's or Clifton. The LN of course is a bevel up 1/4" blade. The Clifton is by far a better chip breaker than the Stanley right out of the wrapping. The Stanley's I'm using all required fettling and up to a 1/2 hour of effort to get it right. The LV and LN chip breakers are on my definite Social Security budget wish list and I would smile in my cool aide to have either. Just my opinion.

[Jim Koepke]

when you say "aside from LV's 01" they are all similar regarding hardness... what exactly do you mean, can you specify on this for those who have no experience? again as someone who just lurked in the shadows reading the last 6 years of posts from all of you guys who have commented so far and a few others, I would like for this thread to be kind of the last word on replacement irons for those other members who do the same thing I did, searching for days on end to find the answer to simple questions like this... I am trying to unlock the knowledge so to speak that can only come from experience, the type of experience all of you guys have, and we, the readers, just wish we had...

James,

I didn't realize you were fairly new at posting here. Welcome to the Creek.

As with many things, there will be no final words on; replacement irons, the best way to sharpen blades, whether water stones or oil stones are better than scary sharp, is chocolate better than strawberry ice cream and so on.

One advantage of a thicker blade is less susceptibility to resonance. It can still happen. This is what is commonly called "chatter."

Another thing to consider is LN blades & chip breakers are made for their planes. There is a statement about their chip breakers on the Stanley replacement blade page.

So much depends on personal preference, style of work, the materials one is working and even the personal factors of meeting the makers that getting agreement on such will not be possible.

jtk