Questions regarding CLTT and dye sub

[Garrett Nors]

Hi there! I hope this is in the correct forum. We own a small trophy/awards business and we want to expand our capabilities. Currently we have a 45 watt Epilog laser that has been our sole workhorse for about 6 years now. My father is finally able to quit his job and work this full time, so we want to jump into adding some color and variety to our products.

We're looking to start out doing plaques, nametags, mugs, simple stuff like this. We outsource large orders of shirts, hats, banners, etc. so we won't need high-end, large format machinery.

Main question is ..... what would be best for our application, CLTT or dye sub? We are actually heading to the Texas Trophy Show this weekend to purchase a system, and while I've been doing my research, it's very mixed and confusing.

We're leaning towards MagicTouch CLTT but I have read in some places that it is not ideal, and that dye sub would be better overall, even with the additional requirement of a polymer base. Is this true? If so, on what basis? Again, we will not be doing bulk t-shirts, or hats, or things like this. We can outsource that. We are looking to do smaller scale promotional items as well as adding color to things like acrylic awards, glass awards, plaques, nametags, trophy tags, etc. We would still like to do shirts and hats and the like, but in small scale (maybe 5-10 at a time or something like this).

If we go dye sub I'm leaning towards the new ricoh e7700 (gx I think? I don't recall off the top of my head).

I know the biggest investment is the heat press, and we intend to go big. We are looking into Geo Knight presses, although I'm not sure what size yet.

Our printer will be able to do 13x19 so we will want a press that will utilize that space.

Does anyone have any suggestions or leads as to what I should concentrate my research on?

Again this is a very small shop we have and we are looking to expand it. We have a lot of potential business and we know that once dad gets out there and does what he does best (he's an excellent salesman and an incredibly socially adept person, he could talk to a post for hours and it'd probably talk back) we will have as much business as we can handle. However, at this point we would like to stay relatively small-scale. We're also interested in getting a vinyl cutter and a small sandblasting setup, but that is 3-6 months or more down the road.

Thanks for any information!
-Garrett

[Mike Null]

Garrett

I am partial to CLT as I have been doing it for over 10 years and like the flexability. I did dye sub a few years back and got so disgusted that I threw the whole thing in the trash. That said, others have had good luck with dye sub and make money with it.

I also do laser sublimation in the color black only and find that to be very profitable.

My opinion is that if you have a retail store dye sub will be much more successful than if you're a home based business.

Don't skimp on a heat press, it's the key to consistent quality. I would not recommend a clam shell style.

[Garrett Nors]

Garrett

I am partial to CLT as I have been doing it for over 10 years and like the flexability. I did dye sub a few years back and got so disgusted that I threw the whole thing in the trash. That said, others have had good luck with dye sub and make money with it.

I also do laser sublimation in the color black only and find that to be very profitable.

My opinion is that if you have a retail store dye sub will be much more successful than if you're a home based business.

Don't skimp on a heat press, it's the key to consistent quality. I would not recommend a clam shell style.

Thanks for the reply Mike.

My only concern is on fabrics, how durable is the transfer? I've read that CLTT is not ideal because it can crack and peel, while dye sub cannot of course. I'm sure it does crack and chip, but if it's over many months of use.....I don't really see that as an issue. Other than fabrics (which like I said we don't plan on doing A LOT of, just some) I can't really think of any issues I'd come across that I wouldn't come across on a dye sub setup.

Eventually we may get both since the heat press is the crown jewel and we will already have that, but CLTT is looking pretty good for us at the moment.

[Scott Shepherd]

First, let me say I love our dye sublimation. It's made us a lot of money. I would never abandon it. We have a Ricoh, we have a GeoKnight swing away press, and we have a GeoKnight mug press. We've never made a single t-shirt because it has to be 100% polyester. Anyone saying you can do 50/50 is wrong. You can, but 50% of the image will wash out when you wash it. The dye sub is a good compliment to the laser, but there are few materials you can cut with the laser and then dye sub. They are out there, but it's not many of them, so the choices are limited.

The CLTT appears to allow a LOT more variety in products. I can't speak for durability of the transfer, it's still too new to us, but I do like that I can do metal, wood, plastics, etc. I did some Corian yesterday that took the image really well.

From a computer side of it, if you have to match colors, dye sub can be a real bear. When you print the image, it looks horrible. The colors come out when you press it. So you have little control over fine tuning how things look. For us, that's a big deal because we get company logos we are trying to match and it makes it almost impossible to hit their colors. You are kinda of left with whatever it is, it is. The Sawgrass Powerdriver, I hate. I think the colors are horrible. We use the Conde profile (I highly recommend Conde) and it's much much better than the PowerDriver. All that said, if you are into color, you're going to have some issues and there will be times you are just stuck with "that's the best I can do", which isn't the best thing to tell a customer. We preface all our sales like that by telling them up front, it's quite possible we can't match your colors exactly.

The CLTT however, whatever the color prints out, is essentially the color it presses. So you have a lot more control over color using the CLTT, in my opinion.

I think you can make money with both of them, especially in the trophy world. Contact me via PM (send me your phone number) and I'll explain how we do some things that might be very helpful to you. It's too much to type.

[Mike Null]

I don't think either process is ideal for fabrics though on polyester dye sub will produce a superior result. The problem there is polyester--for me at least. Keep in mind both require white fabrics--pastels work but colors aren't as vibrant. With CLT you can buy some expensive paper which will permit printing on dark colors. It is a two or three step process. (see MagicTouch WOW)

[Garrett Nors]

I don't think either process is ideal for fabrics though on polyester dye sub will produce a superior result. The problem there is polyester--for me at least. Keep in mind both require white fabrics--pastels work but colors aren't as vibrant. With CLT you can buy some expensive paper which will permit printing on dark colors. It is a two or three step process. (see MagicTouch WOW)

Is screen printing the only viable process?

[Mike Null]

Garrett

I am backing away from the T-shirt business due to the ridiculous competitive situation and am by no means expert. There are several companies who make very good transfers if you have the volume. With them you can make all colors of shirts. They are a bit pricey in my opinion. There is another option and that is to use a vinyl cutter and heat transferable poly. This looks very good has a much better hand than a few years back and won't fade.

Then there is screen printing.

[Tim Bateson]

Keep in mind for "Promotional" Items - you well never beat the Chinese in pricing, so it's hard to compete in that arena. I do the CCTT because it was low cost buy-in and I find it very flexable and can be used on a large variety of surfaces. I use a $99 laser printer and a $400 heat press from eBay. 1 year into it and no issues. Stay far away from Cactus paper... unless you like fighting paper that sticks every time.

[Garrett Nors]

Just a little update:

We decided to go both. I have been reading about these 100-200 dollar printers that can do CLTT just fine, so we went ahead and bough a dye sub setup and we're also going to purchase a laser printer. We figured since we'd need the press for either one of them to work, what's a couple hundred extra bucks to get both technologies?

I'll be honest, the CLTT MagicTouch booth at the TTS was not impressive. Colors were dull, blurry, overall they didn't impress us at all. The Dye Sub booth from JDS (shoutout to Holly) showcased MUCH more vibrant colors and consistency. Obviously there are major drawbacks (most if not all pointed out in this thread) but the quality was just through the roof. I'm not sure if PDU just needs to update their booth stock or what, but it wasn't very impressive. The man leading the show (sorry, I can't remember his name, he has a raspy voice) was excellent and very up front about the perks and downfalls of each system. Holly at JDS was like a wizard or something, she knew everything so it was comforting to know that we could call and ask her questions if (read:when) they arise.

I was really hoping everything would get here before this weekend but it looks like next week is when we'll get everything. I'm very excited

Thanks everyone for your insight, it has helped tremendously.

[Martin Boekers]

Remember dye sub works with poyester material. There are products out there that will work fine
but most vendors don't sell, like 100% poly napkins, Johnson Plastics sell a microfiber towel that is nice.
Conde will do larger pieces at a minimal cost if say you want a floor mat. I use both Magic Touch and dye sub.
You'll like the Ricoh, I am assuming you bought the extra tray as you say it will print 13x19 (Actual size is closer
to 11x17) If you don't mind a "stiffer hand" Neenah has a nice vinyl that heat presses on cotton. I paired a Roland
cutter with an Epson WF 1100 (pigment inks) works fine for shirts. I typically don't do shirts for sale, but it's nice
to have the capability for self marketing.

You will have fun with these processes!