Pin Oak...

[Chris Studley]

My uncle Cut down a Pin Oak tree recently and I have a few pieces coming my way. I haven't ever even seen the tree as he lives in PA (and I, NH) but My Mother is coming up for a visit and the wood is hitching a ride. So I don't have any idea what to expect.

I generally dislike Oak, Not just for turning. The look and/or feel of the grain never really appealed to me. I don't even particularly like my kitchen cabinets b/c they are Oak.

But I figure that Why not give it a fair shot? the price is right...

Any comments on its workability?

Is it prone to excessive cracking/movement etc?

Is it likely I would be able to retain Bark for a natural edge?

Does it wear of tools more than other types of woods?

Thanks All...

[John Keeton]

Chris, I have not turned pin oak, but I believe it is in the red oak family. For flatwork, I have used both red oak and white oak and prefer the workability of white oak. For turning, I would think either would do fine, though if it is wet, it will definitely be prone to cracking - oak is notorious for that.

[Robert Henrickson]

Assuming that what you are calling 'pin oak' is the same thing I call 'pin oak' -- perhaps dubious given the distance between Kentucky and New England or even PA and the general variability in what refers to what even within a limited area. In central Kentucky the same tree can have several different colloquial names (and a given name may refer to two different trees, depending on the person). Many oak varieties rejoice in several different names (e.g., pin oak is also called swamp oak around here).

I like it (but then I suppose I'm something of an oddity in that I like oak and ash). I do like pin oak in particular. The pin oak I have turned has dark heartwood and very light sapwood. The contrast can provide more interest. The grain structure is fairly prominent and complex, but it does not have large open pores. I've turned both fresh or recently cut, and well-dried. The 'damp' is of course better behaved when under the gouge. How much it will crack or move depends on the individual tree and where you are in the grain. If you align the grain, and don't have complications like branching, it is pretty well-behaved when it moves (i.e., regular). If it is freshcut enough, I have had relatively little trouble with cracking even with included pith (hollow forms made from branches), whether the pith is centered or not. It make check on the pith, but rarely tries to destroy itself. Large bowls (12"-14" diameter) made from large trunk logs moved, but aligning the grain yielded a symmetrical result (oval rim).

I would not try to do twice-turned -- it is much more likely to crack if left thick. Turn to final thickness. The fresher it is, the lesser the potential problem with cracking.

Generally bark has stayed on for me, even without the help of CA. This is not the best time of year to cut something and have bark stay on, and it would also depend on how the pieces have been treated (ends sealed, out of sun, etc) since cutting.

If it's relatively freshcut, it isn't likely to wear more on tools than other comparably hard hardwoods.

[Chris Studley]

Thanks Bob,

This is exaclty the Info I was looking for. as far as the Name variations, I feel OK about the Identification as My grandfather was a Tree farmer and all around Green thumb and my uncle would have gotten all the info on ALL the trees on his property (whether he asked or not) some years ago.

It sounds like the having slightly less open of grain would appeal to me (or somewhat mitigate what I dislike about Oak).

As far as the "Freshness" of the wood, I believe it was cut down a couple weeks ago but left in large chunks (trunks) but My step father is to cut some from th larger pieces for me today before driving Up to NH tomorow Morning. He doesn't have anchor seal on hand but I will ask him to put it in trash bags (which I'm sure he would do anyway as this will be travelling in his trunk with the suitcases etc) I assume this will be sufficient to keep the cracks at bay for 36-48 hrs.

as far as Twice turned vs once turned. Say No more. I hate waiting for bowls to dry anyhow.

I don't suppose you have a pic of a piece made form Pin Oak you'd like to share so I can get a peak?

Thanks Again...

[Robert Henrickson]

Three samples, taken from 'inventory' in the basement. In the order below,

1) turned from a freshcut branch with pith way offcenter (h=6")
2) spalted, from the upper main trunk of a standing dying tree, centered pith (h=8')
3) bowl from lower portion of trunk of standing tree (NO FINISH on it now -- left to dry with a coat of lacquer but now just a resanded surface after it had dried)

The bowl illustrates the movement. Even with that major inclusion, the bowl still moved symmetrically so that it is now 13" x 13 1/2" at the rim. Hollow forms will move around bark inclusions or branches.

Photos have poor color balance since I have never gotten my current camera to behave in 'studio conditions' in the course of 5 years, even with reference to the manual -- my previous camera would have had the color right without any Photoshop intervention; even Photoshop can't save these. (The file name for the first one is a mistake, but accidentally correct "pink oak")

bob h

pink oak 115sm.JPGpin oak 85 spaltsm.jpgpin oak bowl 164sm.JPG

[John Keeton]

Bob, I took a shot at the spalted oak image - is this closer on the color?

[Prashun Patel]

I have turned a decent amount of fresh oak, but I can't tell you if it's white or red for sure. I believe it was white.

It is imperative that you seal the ends of the fresh logs; they will crack, and the checks can run all the way thru the blank.

It can move a lot during drying, so I would turn to 10% diameter, dry, and then finish turn in a few months after.

I haven't found it too difficult on tools or finishing vs walnut or cherry.

I also find the grain uninteresting and too swirly if bowl turned in a conventional manner (pith up). If you are doing a bowl and the blank is big, I'd turn it pith out to the bark. This will give you nice big ovals inside instead of X's. However, this also means you'll be turning close to the outside of the log, where the coloring gets kind of bleachy and IMHO ugly, so if the blank is small, turn it pith inward.

Also, one of the unsavory things about oak is that it doesn't have as nice a feel as many closed grain woods. I would take the extra step of wetsanding in your finish to fill the grain. It'll really make the vessel more touchable.

If you want to color it, oak takes color very well. You might consider ebonizing it if you want to experiment. IMHO, oak is the best for ebonizing bkz the grain still stands out but less prominently than with a light finish. A neat experiment is to soak steel wool in vinegar for several days and then fresh oak with it. It'll turn right black on ya!

[Robert Henrickson]

Bob, I took a shot at the spalted oak image - is this closer on the color?

Thanks. A bit too dark and dramatic -- contrast isn't quite that bold. The darker areas are sort of a medium brown / red-brown with darker flecks, so roughly midway between your version and mine. Goes to show what a useless camera I have. Even a series of suggestions from Jamie have not produced a real solution to the color balance -- I really need to replace it.

[Chris Studley]

Thanks All...


Wait a second, Robert says NOT TO Twice turn and Prashun say TO twice turn...


You guys mean to tell me that 2 different turners have 2 different opinions?

What is this world coming to?

On the bright side, the wood being free and all, I can try both.

[Chris Studley]

Very Nice, all of them.

I like the sapwood/heartwood look. I also like the bowl. It is sort of what I had envisioned making as a gift back to my uncle for the wood, although if I can get a good contrast like you got on the HF in the bowl, I'll likely go the Natuaral edge way to acccentuate it.

Thanks again for the Info...

[Robert Henrickson]

Thanks. The bowl was turned with the orientation Prashun suggested (hence the ovals), with the base at the heart of the tree, and the rim toward the bark. I didn't take off much inside the bark, but nonetheless I didn't end up with much of a heartwood/sapwood dichotomy there -- probably depends on the tree, its health, and which type of oak you are using. That orientation of the blank means also that movement will tend to be symmetrical and the rim will remain smooth, even as it goes oval, rather than develop peaks at the pith. If you rough out and leave it, you better really seal it good. I suggest turning oak bowls in one go rather than roughing since I worry more about cracking than movement, and oak only becomes more 'oak-like' as it dries. I find with oak that I'm almost as likely to see it crack by separating along growth rings as across the grain. If the pith is left in, as in hollow forms, it may crack somewhat, but getting it adequately thin should keep that from being too severe.

[Jamie Donaldson]

I recommend that you follow Bob's directions, and the only info that he neglected to mention is the other name for our local pin oak, and that's "piss oak" if yours has the usual distinctive smell! Remember that if you can't turn it, you can burn it!

[Prashun Patel]

These guys know more than I. If sealed I find oak to be reasonably stable. Conversely I have not appreciated how my once turned oak has warped. I ain't no pro, tho.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I turned what a friend of mine called pin oak. It did smell like the oak Jamie decribed. Didn't seem to have many problems.

[Prashun Patel]

The few green oaks I've turned have a strong acid smell that's very much like feet.