I would not get anything without a segmented helical cutterhead with carbide inserts. Converting my 12" machine to this system changed my life.
Contributor
I would not get anything without a segmented helical cutterhead with carbide inserts. Converting my 12" machine to this system changed my life.
Member
David, I'm curious about your maple glue-ups? Don't all those glue joints kill your knives pretty quickly? How cheap is this wood to make it worth your while? FWIW if I'm looking for cheap paint grade I usually ask my supplier if they have any stain grade soft maple, which last time I bought cost $1 a bd ft in 500 ft lots. Even hard maple is pretty cheap in general. I'm just curious as I would think the wear and tear on your knives would eliminate much of the savings of cheap stock....no???
The removal of the guard to flip wide pieces is preached about pretty hard on another forum. My personal take is that it's awful scary to remove the guard on a small jointer, never mind a 12" wide one, to try and feed a wobbly board through. But like many things in woodworking....everyone has their own comfort zone.
JeffD
Member
Johnny, Van, Richard,Originally Posted by johnny means
Put what to rest? Something I've done successfully many dozens (hundreds?) of times over a 25 year career making furniture professionally? (As a general rule, it's best not to say something is impossible simply because you haven't done it; this is in fact not an uncommon practice in the trade where not every shop has an extra wide jointer.)
Can we agree that the point of face jointing is to prepare a board for the thickness planer, to make it flat enough to run face jointed side down through the planer? Face jointing is not the final cut, it's not intended to produce a finished surface, it just creates one face straight along its length and flat enough across its width so the board won't deform when run through the planer.
With some luck and if you buy your material carefully most of your boards will be fairly flat to begin with so the flipping method is easy-peasy and you're on to the planer in no time; on the other hand, some boards you come across will be too out-of-flat to face joint no matter how wide the cutterhead, or even using a Strait-O-Plane, but if somewhere inside a more moderately cupped or in-wind board is a flat, straight board the thickness you need, you can probably flatten one face sufficiently on a jointer that's a bit more that half the board's width (so Richard, no, a six inch jointer can't flatten the face of a 20 inch board, but it can flatten an 11 inch one.) With cupped boards, you might need to lift the board slightly on the outboard side for the first few passes.
Again, this is something I've done successfully many, many times; I liked working with wide stock when possible -- and I dislike sawing and regluing wide boards, although sometimes there's no alternative -- but I only had a 12" jointer so I had to do it from time to time. Ditto where I apprenticed and we only had a 6 in. jointer and sometimes worked with 10-11" stuff. FWIW, I think building a planer sled is too slow for a production situation.
If you want to knock off some high points with a hand plane before face jointing, by all means do so; it might make the job go faster.
David, thanks for your comment about handling wide stock on a jointer.
Last edited by Frank Drew; 06-06-2012 at 8:27 AM.
Contributor
I use my jointers for processing cheese. The straight knife head makes better cheese for salads, and the Byrd head makes better cheese for tacos. Vegamatic my ear....
I have done what Frank suggests, but I don't like it. As he says, you are only looking to get it into the planer. I plane jointed faces every time, the planer just does a better job. The jointer is a rough tool as far as my work situation.
I have had a Porter, but my next and probably final jointer will be an SCM F4 or equivalent, with a Tersa head. I have Byrd and Tersa heads, and I like the Tersa better. I want one lever control so I can look at the bow in the board and take it out in one pass.
Also, I use a power feed on my jointer when rough prepping stock. I set it about 6 inches downstream of the cutterhead and set the jointer for each board to take out all the bow in one pass. If the board is extreme I set it aside to do manually. No problems? I use it for jointing edges as well. Thats what I bought them for, to save me work.
Just kidding on the cheese thing........
Larry
Last edited by Larry Edgerton; 06-05-2012 at 7:19 PM.
Member
As anyone who's face jointed with straight knives know, it really creates a heck of a racket; a fellow with a modern (Tersa?) cutterhead told me that you could have a normal conversation right next to someone face jointing on his machine. Love to try one some day.
Contributor
My SCM planer has a Tersa, and you can indeed talk in a normal tone while it is planing. Cool stuff. I have yet to find a wood that the Tersa head will not plane without blowout. Not sure why it works, but I don't care, it works.
Larry
Contributor
I think the success of the Tersa knives is the sharpness of the cutting edge.. The Tersa edge is sharp like a good honed chisel, I never had the pleasure of having a standard straight knife with such a keen edge no matter who sharpened them..
Member
What does a 16" set of tersa knives cost?
Member
First I would like to say that a 16" jointer is a treat.
Get one.
But all of this talk of giant vintage machines and modern cutter heads that you can talk beside while they hog lumber? If it sounds too good to be true...
Vintage machines are very heavy and usually use power drives that are wildy inefficient by 1970s standards let alone todays standards. Oh yeah, are you feeling proud of your 2 ton jointer cause it's heavy? Not when you have to move it or sell it, then it's called a liability. I've used several vintage behemoths in my day and there isn't one of them that I'd choose over a modern machine (even the modern Martin jointer that had - GASP - concrete poured in the base for ballast - blasphemy). Engineering has marched on and believe me, the modern fare is far more pleasant to use and produces the finest surfaces (I'm not even talking about cutter changes here, just passing boards over a running machine).
The silent insert or segment cutter head that is whisper quiet; I own both and not one of them is quiet enough to talk beside while you do serious stock reduction. This is before you condsider the din of the DC that is required to haul away the chip load. Sure you can talk beside them while they're running with no stock passing over them - so what?
Find the newest modern European machine that you can afford and buy it. You will not be disappointed. Get a Tersa head if you can and use M2 cutters, it will be cheaper than sharpening old school knives and way more pleasant to live with.
Do not expect miracles from modern technology but don't think for a moment that engineering and ingenuity has not raised the performance bar over the years.
Member
I actually agree with Chris which is why I recommended the SCM Jointer.
The old iron is attractive when its priced right .. As I suggested earlier, a 16" Griggio new is $12,800 from Laguna.. I bet the SCM 16" is close to $10K .. If you can buy a real old jointer for $2000 .. it could be an opportunity most folks would not afford.
I use the M series Tersa knives on my jointer and have jointed plenty of glue-up's on it .. I can tell you .. it dulls the knives.. lol I did a whack of counter tops and face jointed maple glue-ups in 11" widths.. Then attached 3 pieces 11" wide.. I got a dead flat 32" Wide Counter top..
It dulls the knives, but its life.. Tersa knives are so easy to change that I consider part of the project.
The old Iron is cool, but I would NEVER go back to the old style jointer knives which need to be set.. When Chris was talking about modern, that is one modern feature that I could not live without .. Byrd or Tersa is awesome for a jointer.. Old style knives .. Yuk..
Last edited by Rick Fisher; 06-06-2012 at 12:18 AM.
Member
Chris, have you used a old iron jointer with a large cutting circle and ground and jointed in place knives... I would be surprised if you have and think the modern stuff does any better of a job. Jointers are simple machines, they haven't changed and ground and jointed in place knives are just as accurate as anything, maybe more so...
Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.
Deep thought for the day:
Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.
Contributor
Stephen, whether you buy high end Euro or high end old cast iron you will be light years ahead over most. In a production environment it is pretty tough to argue against the Tersa, in a more hobby type world straight knives work just fine. I change my knives about twice a year and with two oneway indicators it takes about 30 minutes if I'm having a bad day. I don't grind and joint my own- which is the best way- but Bobby at Woodworkerstoolworks sharpens mine. I tell him I work with hardwood and run a 5" cutterhead at 3500 rpm and he does a great job of grinding to order. Technology hasn't done nearly as much for jointers as other machines. It's more about materials and quality than anything else. The used market is moving towards the high end euro but there are limits to that as well. Not so much for jointers but other machines that are stuffed full of electronics are becoming obsolete well before the machine itself fails. Get the best machine in the best condition and you will be a happy guy. Now when it comes to planers you will have to be careful. Dave
Member
Chris,
I don't think that the argument was that old machines are always better than new machines, but rather that when shopping for machinery don't overlook the high-quality used market if money is a consideration (and for most of us it is.) It doesn't matter how good a machine is if it's simply too expensive.
It's certainly worth a few months search, but eventually you have to get something and get to work; if you can't find used of a quality and at a price you want, you'll have to buy new.
Contributor
A 410 mm (aka. 16 inch) M42+ Tersa knife goes for about $30 per knife, each knife has two edges.. Most Tersa cutter heads contain three our four knives... So either $90 or $120, but as I said there are two edges on each knife, and the knives can be changed in 3 minutes
Last edited by Robert LaPlaca; 06-06-2012 at 8:38 AM.
Member
I have used two machines like that Van, they were indeed accurate, but they weren't as "pleasant" to use as any of the current machines that I have also used. The surface finish was never as good as on a modern jointer; it must be said that we spun those machines up to dress very wide stock which was never easy - two man affairs. Nothing makes jointer/planer maintenance easier than insert cutters be they Tersa or chip, I have found that most folks are too lazy, intimidated, or cheap to buy good tooling and take the time that is required to always have fresh well set knives in place. Many "woodworkers" seem content to take feeble passes because their cutterheads are mashing the lumber not cutting it.
Now if I had an old mill building with a line shaft...
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