Why is pine so... Ummm....hard???

[john davey]

As in to work. I posted last week that I did my first dados by hand. I was getting some good success and with the help I received here I practiced several more and decided what the hell lets build something. I chose to make a very simple hanging shelf from the "I can do that" series in the April Popular Woodworking. Link to it here: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/ar...anging-shelves. They just nailed it together but I chose to add a 1/2 inch to the 3 shelves and make 1/4 inch dados for the shelves. The article used 3 1/2 dimensioned poplar from the borg. I had a 3 1/2 pine board so I figured that will do. This would be a nothing easy thing on the table saw but that would not be what we want to read about here so I chose all hand tools for this. My test dados were all in cherry and went well. The pine is chipping and cracking like crazy. I am guessing that my tools are still not sharp enough and I am probably rushing a little and trying to bite off more than I should. I was able to dimension the stock easily with my new LV LA jack (man is that sweet) and my just made shooting board. The problem is in the dados. Just chipping like crazy. Striking the line with a knife and cutting the depth with the cc carcass saw goes OK. The 70 1/2 is having all of the problems. The bottom of the dado is just not as smooth as the cherry was giving me. I know you need sharp tools for pine but this is giving me very bad results. As a test I did another dado in the cherry board. It went well. I could tell the 70 1/2 was a little duller but it still cut a nice smooth bottom in the cherry. I guess this is just the way it is with pine??? I'll sharpen again and give it another go in the morning but would love to know if this is the norm for pine.....Thanks, John...

[Bill Houghton]

This is a classic problem with the soft pines (not necessarily so of Southern Yellow Pine and similar pines). The wood's soft enough that the grain just collapses under any pressure, particularly end-grain or cross-grain cuts, and you get tearout and ugliness. In fact, one recommended test for chisel sharpness is being able to pare end-grain pine cleanly. Be not disheartened. Yes, work on sharpness; and also consider your approach to the wood, so that you minimize the chance of visible tearout. The base of the dadoes won't be visible once you insert shelves in them, so you may be able to live with tearout there.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Sounds like Douglas Fir. Before using the router try scoring across the grain in the waste portion of the dado with your saw, down to about the depth of the dado. Then when you use the router most of the waste should pop right out, but the bottom of the dado still could be a bit "fibrous." You could use a chisel for the roughing, then the router to get to proper, consistent depth. Keep your tools sharp. I find that DF can be almost as harsh on tool edges as maple and plywood. Using a chisel for roughing would allow your router blade to keep sharp longer.

[John Coloccia]

The so-called "soft woods" are not necessarily soft nor easy to work. If hardwood is like working a bunch of wooden skewers taped together into a bundle, softwoods can be like a bunch of soda straws encased in honey, hardened caramel and sand. The fibers can be long and difficult to shear, but they have little compressive strength and will buckle/tear/chip if you look at them wrong. If you want to work cleanly in woods like pine and spruce, you need to have ridiculously sharp tools, and you need to strop them often (or whatever you do) to keep them like that. Anything other than a very sharp edge will crush the straws and lead to the results you're seeing.

Watch the last Worksharp video I made (#3) and see what a truly sharp tool will do in end grain pine. That's what you need to have, and then working it will be a joy. Like most neander functions, sharpening is the gateway skill and nothing in the world will compensate for a tool that isn't very sharp.

[Jim Neeley]

One recommendation I've received for working with a hand chisel and pine is to set up a separate chisel with a primary bevel ~17*, then using secondary and tertiary bevels a few degrees more apiece. The idea is to create less of a wedging (crushing) effect. This chisel obviously wouldn't hold up under hard woods, hence the separate especially prepared chisel. I've seen the difference in action and the difference in finish was dramatic. I don't know what the feasibility of prepping your 70-1/2 this way but perhaps you can gain something from this?

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

John,

Welcome to the world of pine frustrations.

After working a lot of pine you will come to ignore tear out at the bottom of dados.

The key to good results with pine is sharp tools and being able to deal with tear out in a localized manner.

I tend to smooth surfaces before deciding which will be a show surface and which will be hidden.

Sometimes one has to resort to a scrapper or even sandpaper to have a presentable surface.

With the router plane at the bottom of dados and lap joints sometimes skewing helps.

Pine and many of the fir species are just going to be splintery.

If you really want some frustration, try doing dovetails with stock that isn't fully dry. The trick is to get it done quickly. If the tails and pins are cut but not assembled, it won't be long before wood movement keeps them from fitting together.

jtk

[john davey]

Thanks for the replies. Another question about pine is the white pine listed at lumber yards TNT same as the stuff at the both? Thanks John...

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the replies. Another question about pine is the white pine listed at lumber yards TNT same as the stuff at the both? Thanks John...

There are different grades and types of pine.

I often buy what is referred to as #3 pine. The Borgs sell what is called #2 pine. Either of those I will pick through for the pieces that best suit my purpose at the time. The #3 is about half the price of #2.

#1 pine should be free of knots and splits.

jtk

[Kenneth Speed]

I don't do much with pine and generally use tulip poplar as a secondary wood but I'm wondering if you might have something other than pine. Is the "pine" you used old and recycled from a home restoration project? I ask because construction wood can be SPF (spruce pine fir) and in some old buildings you can also get hemlock which when it is very old and very dry is so hard you can't drive a nail into it.

If the issue is the sharpness of your tools I'd recommend you get some honing compound and do a final "stropping" on a flat piece of wood. I've had the same (now broken block of honing compound for over ten years and it will probably last me until I'm too old to use it. It was very cheap, less than $10.00 and was one of those simple basic tools that really changed my woodworking ( for the better!).

[john davey]

Yes this was borg pine I purchased last month. So I guess #2 spf by what you guys are saying. It was leftover from some shelves I built. Just scrap to play with really. I did not realize it would present some issues. I was able to get the dados to fit fine. Just more work than I thought it would be. I looked at Hearne Hardwoods web site and they have unselected white pine for 1.65 a BF. Is this the same stuff or is this a different breed. I have done some searching and it seems pine is called different things in different areas. I do understand the southern yellow pine is a different animal but I have seen blue pine, white pine, fir, sugar pine, ponderosa pine and spruce listed. Are these all so close together that they just get lumped together or is the white pine Hearne sells going to be different??? It is about an hour drive but the next time I am that way I will pick some up to see. Thanks, John.

[john davey]

Since I finished the project for the most part I figured I would post a picture. I would like to say I did this all with hand tools but I have to admit the curved part killed me. I had to hit it with the Oscillating spindle sander to get it to look like it does (which is still crappy). My coping saw just was a horrible experience and I have no time behind a spokeshave yet. Files and rasps were just as problematic. Much to learn. So I cheated. But the dados were all by hand and they were what was giving me problems with the pine...John.

DSC00242.jpg

[David Keller NC]

There's no "cheating" about getting the job done, by whatever means. I'm a dedicated hand-tool freak, but I needed to turn out a little "cute" outdoor table in a hurry to help a friend sell her house. So I drafted my design on kraft paper with a pencil (think: ugly drawing, but effective), used my planer and jointer to rough out some cypress, and cut all of the tenons on a table saw jig. The legs were profiled on a bandsaw. The only "hand tool" part of the table was chopping the mortises (I don't have a mortising machine), spokeshaving the profiled legs smooth, and hand-planing the top to remove the planer/jointer marks. Table was done in under 10 hours.

And I don't feel guilty at all....

[john davey]

I hear ya David. The only thing I feel guilty about is I wanted this to be hand tools only. I still have some electricity in my basement. I am selling off my jointer and planer. but the rest of the toys are not going anywhere. I truly do get satisfaction from working by hand. Even on a little project like this. I know I could have banged this thing out in a few hours with the power tools and if I need to I will. But to be honest this is going to be in the spot between my entry door and the rest of the house and I will be putting my keys, work badge, phone etc. in it so I have them for the next day. I will enjoy seeing it every day for the rest of my life. So I am glad I struggled a little and it took 4 times as long.

[David Keller NC]

It's hard to know for sure whether you've Eastern White Pine or hemlock/fir from the pictures, but in general most hand tool folks value high-quality eastern white pine tremendously. Presuming that your tools are well beyond razor-sharp, it works better than almost any other domestically available wood with hand tools.

"SPF" or low-quality EWP is another animal altogether. This is part of the reason that most eastern shaker utility item furniture was made from EWP. The wood available to them was from tremedously large, straight, old-growth white pines, and it's this wood that you want to seek out. It's not easy to find - I have a large stash of 15" - 28" wide EWP boards cut from such a tree; there are virtually no knots, the grain is straight, and most of the wood in the boards is heartwood. I value this wood more than the south american mahogany that I have, and am very careful about what projects are "worthy" of cutting into one of these boards.

It's worth seeking something like this out since you live in the East; if you're diligent in searching, you can find EWP from an old forest-grown tree at one of the hundreds of family-owned "micro mills" that are on the East coast. If you can find it, it's worth paying a large premium to get it - I've paid as much as $7-$8 a b.f. to buy 15"+ wide EWP boards free from defects, and it was worth every penny.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm wondering if you might have something other than pine.

I have seen fir species listed as anything from facia (not a species) to "white wood" (also not a species).

I do know there are big differences in the different species of the similar woods.

For my purposes, most of the time I don't care about the species as much as the quality of the individual boards being purchased.

Some of the pieces become rather striking with just a bit of stain. If we come across a piece of what my wife and I call "bird's eye pine," it will likely get a ride home with us and be put aside as the show side of a book shelf or something.

jtk