How to best remove brush strokes from Waterlox finish

[Prashun Patel]

Which Waterlox Original SF are you using? There are two: Original Formula (about $26/qt) and 350 VOC Formula (about $33/qt). I have NEVER had problems with Original Formulation. I have heard (but have not verified with my own experimentation) that the VOC-compliant formulation is harder to work with.

I've brushed Waterlox OSF (Orig Formula) on with a FOAM BRUSH, and it leveled better than your pix, so I suspect something else is going on here. FWIW, though, my technique with this varnish is to brush it on against the grain, then to tip off with the grain. That seems to get in all the nooks and crannies nicely.

I would not switch to P&L 38 yet. I would not add Penetrol to the product. Something else is going on here. Waterlox OSF does not require this much headscratching, and we should be able to troubleshoot it for you.
- prashun

[Scott Holmes]

Alan,

One trick I use is to soak the brush in mineral spirits (MS) BEFORE I use it. Soaking the brush in MS, fills the bristles under ferrule with MS; it also fills the natural bristles with MS which makes them more flexible and better at laying down finish. I usually soak the brush while I'm geetting the varnish ready to brush... e.g. Shaking the varnish vigorously to ensure the flattening agent (in non-gloss) is well mixed.
I know many people say "never, never, ever shake varnish" hogwash... proper brush treatment and proper technique will eliminate the bubbles. Waterlox Sealer/Finish is already a wiping varnish so brushing it will still produce a very thin coat. Generally a brushed coat should be 2-3 wet mill thickness. I would guess this wiping varnish would be more along the 1-2 wet mill thickness.

I suspect you are getting brush strokes because you are going over it too much... Wiping varnish actualy tacks and dries quicker than the reg varnish so you can't go backover it as much.

Also the dry brush could wick some of the MS out of your finish and cause it to tack quicker. You said the most of the table (?) top is fine only some areas are showing brush strokes. What part has the brush strokes? the first part you did or the last part you brushed?

[Alan Lightstone]

Prashun/Scott. Thanks for your responses. Let me go down the list.

I am using Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. Not the 350 VOC kind (you can't pay me to use that again). I've done better in the past with a foam brush also. I just figured, since I spent the bucks on the reportedly very good Grammercy Tools brush, I might as well use it.

I usually use a bottle to drip some MS on the bristles under the ferrule just before brushing. Not sure if I picked that up from you in the past, or somewhere else, but I do it every time. No flattening agent in the original S/F I seem to recall, but I did swirl the container before pouring. I do use a separate container, then shoot Bloxygen in the original container before quickly closing it. No skin in the original container.

I think you are right, Scott, in that I just can't help going over it too much. I just brushed on a coat and FORCED myself not to go over it. A/C was on just before, as was air cleaner. Air measured at about 70ppm on the Dylos (much cleaner than the air I am breathing now). Temperature is 77 degrees, relative humidity is 47%. Blue eyes. Brown hair. Two dogs.

Different parts have the brush stokes. Most are at the end of the table, so that the brush was a little less varnish soaked when it got to that. I've tried varying where I have the brush strokes start, to help avoid this. I also agree that the wiping varnish is tacking and drying very quickly. Any brush strokes that occur more than about 1 minute after the initial stroke show brush strokes.

I just completed another coat. I added about 10% Penetrol to the Waterlox by volume. The can states I can add up to 25% by volume, amazingly. This is the first coat where I have added that much.

I can see that there are some areas where the finish is applied heavier than others, and there is enough pooling to show. I'll see if this levels out (it's only been about 30 minutes since application). If it doesn't, I'll take a picture and show. That area is clearly where the was too much finish applied to an area, compared to the surrounding area. There are less conventional brush strokes, though, as I didn't go over the surface.

[Sam Murdoch]

... and now we wait ...

[sheldon pettit]

LOL, ok i guess im typing with invisble digitally constructed bits of info here,

So i will try one more time then i'm out of this one, lol.

Let dry, sand and spray!!

"Who typed that? do you see anything? hmm..... must be a spammer", lol.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Dragging the brush across the rim will remove material form the bristles. When you lay the material out on the surface, those dry bristles will pick up material and leave brush marks.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.... Thanks Rich!

[Alan Lightstone]

Sheldon:

I have no doubts that it can be sprayed successfully by someone. Maybe even me.

I virtually never see anyone discussing spraying anything with Waterlox. FWIW. I also obtained just what I was looking for by wiping on Waterlox on the bottom of the table top. Why not the top, is what we're all discussing here.

I'm really not set up to spray flammable finishes. I've actually been investigating explosion proof fans this week. When this project is done, my next step is going to be to set up my knock-down spray booth again, make it better, and take a bunch of sapele samples and try finish combo after finish combo until I can approximate the look of waterlox with spraying. I know there will be a lot of dye/shellac/water-borne finish spraying in my future. When I'm done with that, I'll probably have a newer, faster way of doing things. I hope. But for now, I think for the last finish on a long, complicated project (which I'm hoping people will appreciate pictures of when I'm done), it's going to have to be brushed on, or wiped on Waterlox.

Your suggestion, which may be much smarter, will have to be Plan B for now. Malum consilium quod mutari non potes.

[sheldon pettit]

Sheldon:

I have no doubts that it can be sprayed successfully by someone. Maybe even me.

I virtually never see anyone discussing spraying anything with Waterlox. FWIW. I also obtained just what I was looking for by wiping on Waterlox on the bottom of the table top. Why not the top, is what we're all discussing here.

I'm really not set up to spray flammable finishes. I've actually been investigating explosion proof fans this week. When this project is done, my next step is going to be to set up my knock-down spray booth again, make it better, and take a bunch of sapele samples and try finish combo after finish combo until I can approximate the look of waterlox with spraying. I know there will be a lot of dye/shellac/water-borne finish spraying in my future. When I'm done with that, I'll probably have a newer, faster way of doing things. I hope. But for now, I think for the last finish on a long, complicated project (which I'm hoping people will appreciate pictures of when I'm done), it's going to have to be brushed on, or wiped on Waterlox.

Your suggestion, which may be much smarter, will have to be Plan B for now.

Thank you for the answers Alan, at least i now know I'm not invisible, lol.

I don't think you'll have any problem once your set up to spray Alan, i would advise you to purchase a wet mil gauge though to measure against your normal brushed applications so that you can adjust your gun to give the same thickness when spraying if needed or desired, OK?

[Alan Lightstone]

Who sells the wet-mil gauges? I looked into it the last time I sprayed, and didn't really find any. The local SW store didn't have them either.

[Alan Lightstone]

Another possible variable. The can I am using is down to its last 25 percent (250 ml). It was purchased about 6 weeks to 2 months ago. Don't think it's a shelf life issue, and again, no skinning plus religiously used Bloxygen in it, but...

[sheldon pettit]

Who sells the wet-mil gauges? I looked into it the last time I sprayed, and didn't really find any. The local SW store didn't have them either.

I buy mine, usually a dozen at a time from Paul n. gardner, they made most of the testing equipment i used to use for astm testing etc.,

There cheap, couple of buck per plus shipping. Directions are printed right on them for proper use.

http://www.gardco.com

http://www.gardco.com/pages/filmthic...allingcard.cfm this will get you right to the wet mil guage ok?


And no..... you don't have to be chemist or anybody special to buy from them , lol.

[Alan Lightstone]

So, only 4 hours into drying, and here's how things stand.

Things are improving, but clearly a bunch of brush strokes didn't level out. I can see lines where overlapping coats took place.

Not sure how well these pictures show things, but here we go:

Brush-marks-2.jpgBrush-marks-3.jpgBrush-marks-4.jpg

Now I'm not sure how much more the surface will level after 4 hours (if appreciably at all).

So I'm getting better, but it's not at a level where any of you would put your name on it. My question is, if let to cure for a month, would these brush marks rub out, or will I just sand through the (thicker now that it's brushed) top layer again?

[sheldon pettit]

So, only 4 hours into drying, and here's how things stand.

Things are improving, but clearly a bunch of brush strokes didn't level out. I can see lines where overlapping coats took place.

Not sure how well these pictures show things, but here we go:

Brush-marks-2.jpgBrush-marks-3.jpgBrush-marks-4.jpg

Now I'm not sure how much more the surface will level after 4 hours (if appreciably at all).

So I'm getting better, but it's not at a level where any of you would put your name on it. My question is, if let to cure for a month, would these brush marks rub out, or will I just sand through the (thicker now that it's brushed) top layer again?

Boy I'll tell you Alan, if it were me i would let it set for a week or more and then cut the whole top back , i see much more than just brush strokes that need to be attended to. you have what appears to be fish eyes, Lot's of particles [dust or what ever] and of course the obvious outlines of your repaired area[s]. I don't know where the contamination issues are coming from but i do know by the time you level everything as perfect as possible especially to get rid of the fisheyes, your going to loose most of the coating for sure.

Tough calls, tough decisions....... If these types of contaminates are on the rest of the top also, personally i would be leaning towards stripping and starting over. But that's me....I'll leave it to you to decide what's best.

[Mark Levitski]

Alan,

My wife uses Waterlox Original on the furniture she makes and I use it on my turned bowls and such. I agree that if you either brush it on or wipe it on you need to leave it alone and not try to go over it with the brush or cloth. You only have a couple minutes to go back to any that you laid down. We wipe it on, period. Then quickly wipe it off. Takes multiple coats, but we rarely use more than three. If you want to build the finish more, then use more coats. Always make sure the previous coat is cured, of course. We use plain white paper rags for the wipingand have great results with no noticeable lint left behind. Our goal is a protective finish with little or no gloss and an in-the-wood look. We have learned from an experience such as yours how to avoid brush and wiping marks with WL and some other products.

You can certainly buff out some minor imperfections AFTER IT FULLY CURES. Same applies for knocking down w/ sandpaper. For our purposes, we take our pieces to a tripoli buffing wheel to complete the finishing.

Mark

[Alan Lightstone]

Thanks, Mark. My initial buffing out which revealed the witness lines was done 1 month after final coat, so it should have been sufficiently cured.

Some steps forward, and some back (hint - there has been additional sanding, sigh...)

Once I get something presentable, or stop uncontrollably weeping, I'll post some more pictures.