Shop Tour #3 - Monster lathe

[lou sansone]

nice oliver. i have looked at these before. olivers were nice because they had a motor set under the head stock, which really reduces the vibration. ball bearings will be nice as well.. You need to allow for some adjustment to keep things lined up. I like the 20c's rather then the 25 because it can have the motor swapped out like you did. I also converted my flat belt to a timing belt setup with a 3 hp vfd and 4 speed gear box. Are you planning on also adding a gear box ? I think you will find it useful and give you a better usable range of speeds.

lou

[Brian Weick]

Took the babbitts out today, cleaned up the headstock & spindle- have to take it to the machinist tomorrow- with the tail stock~ talk about some heavy equipment-----whew~! Going with sleeve roller bearings- as far as the adjustment- not sure what you mean- he is aligning it -exactly to the tail stock live point- not sure what you mean- can you clarify that-thank you.
Regards,
Brian

[Brian Weick]

I already have one- same as you have Lou- only it's a little whirly in the 3-1 and 4-1 ratio- any suggestions?
Regards,
Brian

[lou sansone]

the sleeve roller bearings will have to be dead nuts bored in the place where the babbit bearings went. Similar to line boring a cam shaft or crank shaft. as long as he is doing that type of boring for them, fine. Many opt for the pillow block method that uses ball bearings that can be aligned horizontal, vertically and angularly. Most roller bearings do not allow for angular alignment if needed ( I have use some that did, but they were very expensive ). The drive all box will just be noisey in those gears to some degree. I like your direct coupling setup BTW .... good idea

best wishes
lou

[Steven Wilson]

Lou, do you have the crossways? Could you post a picture. I'm sort of looking at doing some precision turning on my Oneway 2436 and really don't want to buy a metal lathe. Those crossways might be just the ticket.

[lou sansone]

I do have the crossways, but took them off. I can take a photo of them, but these patternmakers lathes have a very similar crossways to a metal lathe. I am not sure what the photo will give you though. the oneway is not a patternmakers lathe and does not have the option for a crossway as far as I know. Unless you are doing columns or big patterns on the face plate, I don't know why you would want crossways. what were you planning on doing ?
lou

[Brian Weick]

Lou,
How come you didn't keep the crossways and the carriage on you're American Lathe? - You could have fabricated a router/trimmer-plate to mount on the carriage and flutted them without a jig-
I know some woodworkers with these large lathes don't like to keep them on because they say they get in the way. However- there is a holder that attaches to the carriage for a single tool rest that moves with the carriage-where ever you want it to go. - do you still have the carriage?
Regards,
Brian

[Brian Weick]

Hey Lou,
off to the machinist today- I'll have pics to bring back today- getting a shot of the milling machine that will be doing the work, along with the lathe resizing the spindle ~hopefully?
Fredric's machinery is doing the work- I chose him because he came highly recommended. the shop is generational and the owner came by to see the lathe at my shop last week. He told me that's all his father used to work on was the older machinery of the past and was very familiar with this type of lathe- first of all he was surprised I had one to begin with. reason I am going with these bearings Lou is I wanted to keep the look of the oliver headstock without compromising the precision. once it is done- I won't have to worry about adjusting anything-hopefully(knock on wood-LOL) I have not seen this done-Anywhere-on any older Oliver lathes with Babbitt bearing, maybe I haven't searched the WWW enough ~ which is a little nerve racking because it would have made me feel a little more comfortable. He is very confident that he can do the job precisely. Well see?
I'll keep this updated- I love this sight- you guys are all "good people" and it is appreciated.
Regards
Brian

[lou sansone]

I agree with you on the roller bearing setup as opposed to the chop off the top and stick on some ugly looking pillow blocks. I think it is a good idea. All I am saying is that the roller bearings have to be located perfectly in each of the old babbit bearing retainers. I think once that is done, you will have a great looking machine.
IRT the crossway, I took it off because it did get in the way for my liking. I might put it back on, but not right now..

lou

[Brian Weick]

UPDATE: Just got back from Fredrick's Machining ,Allen is going to use the horizontal milling machine (2nd picture) or the vertically milling machine (3rd picture)to bore out the Babbitt wells to 3.167". The shaft is being machined down to 1.9674" ,there is just under 2" total being machined off the spindle is roughly 5/32" (1st picture).The 4 SKF bearings are going in ,2 on each end and 2 sealed thrust bearings / locking sleeve's for the shaft and an index plate built write into the spindle with a collar (so I don't have to take it off and put it back on every time I want to use it) it will be in 1 degree increments- locking assembly on the plate mounted to the headstock - not a pin assembly- to much can go wrong with that as far as movement- I don't want that spindle to move at all. Also- there is a 220vlt pressure switch going in so when the locking lever is locked it automatically shuts off the power to the VFD.
I will have it back in 2 weeks or so,(4th picture) in the mean time the bed/carriage are being stripped today and ready for the final paint job. may go with a hunter green, not to sure about the battleship Grey? I'll be putting more threads on the lathe as they develop - you all have a great weekend
Happy Turning
Regards,
Brian

[J.R. Rutter]

Wow Lou, your floor is pretty clean considering the lathe! That is a sweet setup!

[Roy Wall]

Good news Brian!!

Keep us posted with a new thread.....looks terrific!

[lou sansone]

hi brian
I agree with rob... lets get a new thread going on your machine. The american is nice, but the oliver 20 is the cat's meow. I do like the way the shop did the bearings and also the fact that you put the thrust bearings in. good going

lou

[Brian Weick]

I will do that Lou ~ have some things to take of this weekend but I will be putting it together Sunday I think. I'll need a little help with that- posting a new thread. little side note Lou about you're Lathe Lou,
You're beautifully American Wood Workers Machine Co.lathe sits write along with any professional pattern makers lathe of the time up to and including the modern time's of today. "American Machinery Company" was founded back in 1890 by Joesph.W Oliver . There is a lathe on WWW.OWWM - First picture under lathe category says"The Oliver" and directly underneath that stamped The American Machinery Company" this lathe stamping with the "oliver" name tag was the predecessor to "The Oliver" Stamp on the legs (with some models) or just the word "Oliver" stamped on the headstock & tail stock,depending on the year and make and it was made under th impression that "Oliver" was the brand and "American Machinery" made the lathe by some and then thought the opposite was true, not to mention being confused with " American Wood working Machinery Co.- That was when In 1903 Oliver decided to get away without the label American Machinery" as to not be confused with their competitor~ The "American wood working machine co." -You're lathe #9. These were two of the fearcesed competitors of that era- very high quality machinery was being produced from both companies ,as far as woodworking machinery was concerned. They both had some blunders as all companies produce lemons from time to time. Something you have to ask yourself as a Wood Turner ~ one question "How many of us have the chance to not just use, but own a lathe that can turn 8' x 24" product on their lathe without it bouncing all over the floor,-with a sliding carriage to perform a perfect circular shape, perfect from end to end-or maybe an offset turning~ and then again the 82" outboard cherry ornament ~there's not that many, not that many indeed.
I consider myself and anyone else that has these cast iron marvels of the past , refurbished ~ and in excellent operating condition ,to be a very fortunate individual, Fortunate ~ only up until the next time is has to be moved to another location-LOL that's just my opinion old, large,lathes and what I am producing as a craftsman, and it is my opinion alone Lou ~ . I am in no way putting down other modern lathe manufacturers of today, there just not made like the way they used to be made way back when. One Way's, Nova,s and the like, very well made lathes in my opinion,Especially the One Way-very nice machine~ Smooth ,well balanced, nice location for the VFD on the swing arm,~ I wish I had that, and I may do that with a separate key pad? The solid heavy steel construction tube design of the One Way is very solid, along with the leg section, and I like what their capable of, but how do I fit a 8' x 24" diameter staved column on there??????hmmmmmmmmm. Not that it couldn't be done~ to me- Very professional results come from what you used to make it - this is what I do for a living- It is very time consuming when you're trying to make a round column without a carriage, the details are done by hand, but that carriage is what really intrigued me about pattern lathes- they have so many great uses, and they make the job go so smooth ~ That is why I bought my Oliver. That's the direction of my career as a craftsmen, there is no getting by without the machine to do the job write ,efficiently and ,,,,,professionally.
Rather interesting on how I came to buy the Oliver 20C .
Before I bought it I was going to buy an "American" pattern makers lathe -Like your's only larger ~I think, it was out in this mans farm in Franklinville ,NY, found it under Lathes-EBAY auction, the lathe never sold so I called the man (he left the # on the ebay add)I asked if I could come down to see the lathe - he said "Sure" .So I drove down there to see for myself what condition it was in. The Lathe was in his 4 car garage being used as a sort of ,~walk back in time ,type of , ~ early "American wood Working machinery Company gallery" appearance to it. Anyways, There was this massive Pattern Lathe, with all these belts jutting up to the ceiling,A huge 36" planner,A 15" jointer, 16" table saw - all of which had the "American " name plate on them. All Babbitt bearing to give you some idea of the age~ They were all powered off this massive 1 pulley system,(all of which was idle and separate from the Lathe)~ he had rigged this in the garage , took up 3 car bays. All of the machinery could run at one time on this massive overhead belt system. It honestly looked like something from Frankensteins castle~no joke. It had this massive handle that you used to move up the step pulley on the lathe just above the headstock and a massive chain going to the middle linkage down to this prehistoric motor that sparked like crazy when he turned it on ,that motor was absolutely huge, must have been 20" diameter, just huge, so ~ he said it always does that- don't worry ~ Ive named her "Sparky"~ scared the crap out of me when he ran it, I was actually slightly blinded by the flash, I'm thinking~ Yea, don't worry until it lights my shop up like a torch.
He was a very nice man, don't get me wrong, just a little touched in the head, but a real nice guy. It had a 12' long bed, ,,,,turning length capability - 8' and a little more, a 24"swing over the bed/20 over the carriage (carriage included) and all the original tooling that came with the lathe, not to mention a side outboard carriage exactly like the one on the main bed, only it is 4' bed length~ stubby , mounted on a separate stand that bolted to the floor, it was exactly like a smaller version of the large bed used to pattern outboard turnings- However, that whole out board setup wasn't with the lathe however, it was kept out in the barn ~ 200 yards away,,so when we got over there ,he opened the doors ,,and there it was, write in the corner, ,,,,,,,,,right above the whole in the roof as I looked up while rain is falling on me, ~it was raining that day, I'm thinking- ,,,,,what a shame,seriously. If they had just moved it down ,,just another 10' it wouldn't have been in the condition that I saw it in. It was completely covered in rust, everything was frozen to the bed and I wasn't quite sure if it could be salvaged. It was just one massive piece of rusty machinery and way to much work ,and the cost involved for me to update the lathe, "pricey" -not "priceless" . The Babbitts either needed to be redone or refabed to accept modern bearings of today, there was a little, a small bit of play in them, I knew the Babbitt housing/bearings had to be addressed. Everything needed to be sandblasted-the lathe itself had surface rust- not to bad but it had to be cleaned, basically everything (covering the important machined parts so they wouldn't get damaged) if I was to go the sandblast method and That means dragging it over to a shop and back. The weight , everything all together-approximately 5,680lbs. A new motor to replace- "Sparky" as the owner stated by name ~he would have to go, either that or invest in a good pair of welders goggles ~ and a few fire extinguishers to go along for the ride that beast of a motor was 220single phase 3 hp motor that would have to be changed up to a 5hp 3 phase induction motor. I would have had to buy a VFD of coarse,10hp ,and send the entire lathe out to have a machinist fabricate some type of Motor housing assembly/belt drive system and milling/or babbitts on the headstock, (like what you have ~ top drive setup) plus a "drive all unit"- hard to find and very pricey- Can't do without it when doing large turnings- you need the torque in the spindle shaft as I believe. A good "Drive ALL",one that hasn't been abused ,can go for 4- $500.00, maybe less- if you are at the write place at the write time and it is in as good of condition ,as stated by the owner, maybe $200.00. The tappers on the both ends needed to be resurfaced and after all of that expensive work would have to be a new paint job.
By the time all was said and done it was going to be between $6,500 and $7,500 as an business investment, thats If it was going to be brought back to life and back to the professional piece of woodworking machinery it once was. I really couldn't justify giving him what he was asking for $1500.00 , considering the condition of the Lathe, he could get more from the scrap yard than what I was willing to pay, , so I kindly thanked him , told him I had to do some investigating on the cost to refurbish the lathe and went on my way. I called back after finding out the cost and told him I was going to pass and said I am sure someone will take the lathe - because it was a nice project for someone that wanted to put that kind of time and money into it~ It was a great piece of machinery, just severely neglected unfortunately, otherwise you would have seen pictures of an American lathe instead of what you see today. But I have to tell you it is sitting in someones shop now , I called him back a couple of weeks later to find out if it had a home and it has, he got $1000.00 from some man that came from Pennsylvania to pick it up. Hopefully the knew owner is going to revive her~ The lathe was very,very, early - 1901 I believe (?) Anyways, An "American Woodworkers Machinery co" lathe made in the time of the past is something I wouldn't pass up -and I didn't but, unfortunately- that one was going to give me Grey hairs and put me behind the eight ball -all the way around.
Well, I'll never forget that lathe- not to mention , that great motor- "sparky" you should have seen the arcs on those winding contacts~ 4th of July ~ LOL. The very next day, in the morning- I got back on Ebay~Woodworking, in hopes that something came up- there she was Mrs.20C From RIT. I placed my bid - 5days later and 4 seconds to go - I was going on a road trip to Rochester to pick up my winning prize- I still can't believe it. It's the lathe I dreamed of- looking at that one listed on Xfactory- it has been there a while-a 20C started at $15,000, then down to $12,500, now it's down to $10,000- check it out, under lathes. That was a little more than I wanted to spend. I better stop- I am writing a book here-LOL
Anyhow,
How do you make a new post- I tried to find that since I have been back on here? There isn't a button "post a thread" or am I missing something?
You have a great weekend- all of you
Happy turning,
Brian

[lou sansone]

great story .... I do agree the the old patternmakes lathes can't be beat. The problem is that there are not very many to go around and so folks do have to buy the oneways. I love the american #9, but the oliver 20c is a much better machine, no question about it. maybe someday I will fine one.

to post a new post, all you have to do is just go to the main section under general woodworking and power tools and start a new thead


lou