European Table Saw vs Conventional Table Saw like Saw Stop

[John Adank]

I'm going to be in the market for a new table saw next year and can't seem to make up my mind on what kind. I am really sold on the safety of the Saw Stop and was pretty sure that was what I was going to purchase but I started looking at the European saws again and have come to a crossroads. I kind of had my mind made up to buy the Saw Stop for the safety reasons only. I was thinking of adding a Incra fence to it and figured I'd have a great set up when done. I started looking at the Hammer K3 Winner again and the Mini Max. The European saws have had built in safety devices for years and I am kind of attracted to the sliding table for cross cutting and ripping. I know I have a lot of time to make my decision and no matter what way I go, I will have a good quality saw but I was wondering if anyone out there was experiencing the same dilemma as I and could offer some suggestions.

Thanks,
John

[frank shic]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

[Neil Brooks]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

+1

At that point, I think you're entering "flip a coin" territory, where ... you simply win, either way.

[Frank Martin]

I am on the same boat. I have a Unisaw and thinking about the SawStop with a Jessem Slider (purchased during Woodcraft closeout) and Incra fence. Two reasons for this in my case:
1 - Sawstop has the brake vs. euro machines don't. I know euro machines are inherently safer than american style cabinet saws, but accidents can still happen, no two ways about it. I won't go into a long argument, but to me this is no different from airbags, anti lock brakes, side collision bars, adaptive cruise control etc., on the cars that make them safer. I have never been in a serious car accident other than getting rear ended by women about twice a year with bumper damage, but safety is always a big factor when I purchase cars. So, no different here.
2 - To effectively use the euro slider for ripping in addition to cross cutting, you need a long stroke machine (~8 ft). I simply don't have the space in my 2-car garage for that.

[Stephen Cherry]

First of all, think about dust collection. THe eurosliders have great dust collection both above and below the blade. And the dust can cause serious heath issues, maybe even moreso that cutting off your finger.

Second, the blade gaurd. Mostly you would have a hard time getting your finger under the guard to cut it off.

The rip fence- most of the euro fences have adjustments to position the fence so the workpiece is not trapped between the blade and fence.

The position of the blade- the euro format machines have the blade on the edge of the saw to take advantage of the slide. With a little head scratching, and a few holddown clamps, almost everything is possible with the slide. Add in a swing away feeder and you are set up. THe other saws stick with the obsolete setup of having the blade in the middle of the table- both thumbs pointing at the blade.

Kickback- I think that the eurosaw is the winner in this safety issue, with the wood securely clamped to the sliding table.

Scoring blades- if you do sheet material, the euromachine is better with a scoring blade.

As for the slide length- 8 feet fits in a garage, but it is tight. Also for a normal table saw, you need the same footprint if you want to rip full sheets, the wood has to go somewhere.

[Jerome Hanby]

+1

At that point, I think you're entering "flip a coin" territory, where ... you simply win, either way.

Don't the "real" sliders have sliding tables that come much closer to the blade?

[Greg Portland]

The European saws have had built in safety devices for years and I am kind of attracted to the sliding table for cross cutting and ripping.

You can perform virtually all operations away from the blade on a Euro saw (assuming good clamps on the slider). Add a power feeder for long rips for additional safety. I prefer the slider mechanism because you stand off to the side (away from the path of any kickback). The SS is a great saw too... just recognize that you can get injured by any tool in your shop (i.e. your brain is your #1 safety feature).

[David Kumm]

If the issue is about the braking, the SS is the only game in town. If the question is about which saw is the more versitile and the braking is a side issue, the comparison is more relevant. Even a short stroke slider is better or as good at most sawing operations than a traditional type saw. Bevel ripping would be an exception so if that is important you should consider that. An add on slider is a good "if you have no other choice" option but like nearly as handy as a real euro slider where you can clamp the work right next to the blade. You want a crosscut fence that can be removed quickly and return to 90 exactly and easily. For years I used a Rockwell 12-14 and a Hammond trim saw for crosscuts. Even with my slider I still use them but for panel work and bigger crosscutting the slider is light years ahead of a traditional US type saw. If you believe the traditional saw fits your needs the SS is an added bonus, but if not it isn't enough to cause me NOT to buy a slider. In fairness, I would not not give up my 12-14 for a SS, maybe a Tanny or Oliver though. Dave

[James Baker SD]

I think along similar lines to Stephen, if I ever replace my PM-66, I will look first toward quality of cut, second to the best dust collection possible, then to other safety features. While the sudden shock of running a finger into the spinning blade is dramatic (I know from personal experience--no fun, 2 surgeries plus 6 month of PT to regain use of that finger), the slow creeping up on you danger of dust in the lungs scares me a lot more now.

James

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I was in EXACTLY the same position as you in 2008. In the end, I chose the MM CU300 and got rid of my separate jointer, planer and tablesaw. At first, I must admit, I thought I'd made a big mistake. While crosscutting is unparalleled (no pun intended!) with the euro sliders, the manner of work process was so different than a traditional table saw I was pulling my hair out! Now, I am just a hobbyist, so I didn't have gobs of time to practice. An hour or two here, and hour or two there and that was it. However, now 3.5 years into it, I feel I made the right decision. When you learn to use the slider and add jigs to it, it is FANTASTIC. Further, your hands are never even CLOSE to the blade and, in 99% of operations, your body is never behind the blade.

Someone mentioned that you need an 8+ ft. slider to rip. That is partially true. If you need to rip long boards that sure is ideal. However, there are folks out there that have devised jigs to allow you to rip twelve footers on the 5.5' slider! I've not done it, but have seen, for instance, Sam Blasco's video of him doing just that when he had the CU300. In actual practice, I'm not usually ripping boards longer than 5 feet, even when making dressers and the like. So . . . my 5.5' has served me just fine.

In the rare instance that I do a long rip, I use a circ saw with the EZSmart and that works extremely well.

With the prices in the cellar right now, You will find absolutely great deals on sliders and/or combos. I just saw one here (with more goddies than mine has) sell for 1/2 of what I paid and there was hardly any time on it.

Good luck with your purchase decision. If you don't mind retraining your brain for work process, I don't think you'll regret going with the slider.

[Carl Knapp]

There are a lot of great points in this thread. There are a few things I would like to add or comment on.

I have followed some of the knock down drag out threads regarding the saw stop technology and do not want to go there. I have been using euro style saws now for many years. With a euro saw there is no reason or need to ever put a body part near the blade, its path or put yourself in a compromising situation. After using a slider and I mean one that has been engineered into the saw. I feel uncomfortable when I have to use a US style saw.

1. Frank mentioned euro saws not having a brake, all saws sold under the Felder umbrella including Hammer have motor brakes. He meant the saw stop type lock up.
2. As mention and I agree 150 % You don't have to cut eight feet on the slider to take advantage of the sliders benefits. As a matter of fact in Europe, most people do not have the longer sliders.
3. You can still use the slider even if the cut is longer than its stroke. You just have to remove the cross cut fence and only reference the rip fence.
4. I don't think we should compare car safety to a saw. When I am using the saw, I am in full control, Especially on a Euro saw, If I get hurt, it's because I did something I shouldn't have.
5. You always hear that the splitter eliminates the worst accident, which is when tension within causes the board to close on the heal and then get launched, but what I do not hear is that because of the splitter I can keep my fingers away from the blade especially on those narrow fancy cuts, where as before I would be trying to keep the board against the fence getting my hands too close. Now I let the piece pass the splitter not having to worry. I take my second push stick, placing it against the back of the splitter like a feather board as the piece passes.
6. On narrow pieces, I just lay the rip fence down, which opens up the right side of the blade especially when cutting angels.
7. The other big accident, cross cutting, when the piece on the right cocks between the fence and the blade and launches. The slider and fence eliminates this alos. If you are doing repetitive cross cuts, just slide the rip fence back before the arbor.
8. Being able to clamp something to the slide is great.
9. Any jig you can imagine that you have ever used or seen can be mounted to the slider and used with full control and accuracy.
10. Scoring is great. It's ever good when cross cutting real brittle solid wood.
11. Someone already mentioned dust extraction.
12. Being able to measure on the left side gives you an atvantage.
13. Having an outrigger and large cross cut fence is even better.
14. Euro saws take up less room than the conventional cabinet saw.

[Eric McCune]

you could always attach a sliding table to the sawstop.

With all due respect, this is comparing apple and oranges. A saw designed to be a slider is not the same as attaching a slider to an American style saw.

My slider has an 80 inch slide. Not sure an after market add on can to that. I can so buy many attachments designed for my slider like parallel guides, hold downs, etc. My slider also runs extremely close to the blade, most after market slides are much further away from the blade. This allows for straight line ripping on the slider.

John, I had the same decision 2 years ago. I was sold on sawstop until people like Carl Knapp and Rod educated me on the European tools. I can't even imagine working without a european slider. The precision and accuracy makes it a joy to work with. It's easy to stay away from the blade and use guards.

Call felder and ask for a reference in your area. Go see them and talk to current users.

Good luck.

Eric

[Jerome Hanby]

I was thinking about this after making my post. Other than loosing a little bit of maximum cutting height, why couldn't you combine some of the features of a cross cut sled with an after market (or shop made) add on sliding table and end up with a slider that tracks right next to the blade? Seems like you could make the bar for the miter slot out of UHMW and maybe add some pads of the same stuff to cut down on resistance. The sliding table part could give you a lot more space in front of the blade than a "normal" crosscut sled would. You could probably get really creative and put a slider on both sides of the saw and create a "monster" sled.

[John Adank]

I appreciate all the advice and comments thus far. I will continue to explore the European saws. I would like to look at Felder,Hammer and Mini Max. I do have a small shop so space is a concern but I know that some of the smaller models require the same size footprint as the traditional cabinet saw. I wish I could find some of these saws near by to look at. I also kind of wanted to go to a woodworking show to see some of this machinery. Not sure where that would be possible. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks again everyone. This is a great professional site.

[Jim Andrew]

My buddy's SCM takes up enough room to fill a garage. And he says that parts are a real pain. The dro on the fence quit, and hasn't been able to get it fixed.