What's going on with this finish

[Alan Lightstone]

Getting some wierd happenings with the wiping varnish dilution of Waterlox I'm putting on this table. On all the surfaces (especially the horizontal veneered surface) it seems like the Waterlox is separating, or being repelled by something on the surface.

Here's a picture of it happening:
Problems-with-Wiping-Varnish-Finish.jpg
Now I did sand once after putting on a number of coats with 320 sandpaper. Is it possible that the sandpaper left some residue that is repelling the varnish? Or is my can of Waterlox somehow bad?

How can I fix this piece?

[Scott Holmes]

By chance did you use low odor mineral spirits? Looks like something is amiss for sure.

Wipe-on should be wiped like the kid at the fast food joint wipes the table. Don't try to leave a "coat" of film, just wipe it on as a damp coat and leave it alone.

[Kent A Bathurst]

By chance did you use low odor mineral spirits? Looks like something is amiss for sure.

Scott..could you expand on this....am I correct in reading that you want to avoid that version?

[Alan Lightstone]

By chance did you use low odor mineral spirits? Looks like something is amiss for sure.

Wipe-on should be wiped like the kid at the fast food joint wipes the table. Don't try to leave a "coat" of film, just wipe it on as a damp coat and leave it alone.

Yes I did. Why do you ask?

I did wipe in on like the proverbial kid in the fast food joint. The table top looks great. But with this new can of Waterlox, after sanding, something is rotten in Denmark.

I'm presuming there is sanding in my future?

[Prashun Patel]

Is the Waterlox like jelly? If not it is still good.
When you mix your ms with the Waterlox, it should go initially cloudy, but upon gentle stirring should go relatively clear.

Somme yr surface is clean then I too suspect that the wrong solvent has been used.

[Sam Murdoch]

What Scott suggests was my first guess - that you have residual mineral spirits on your surface - from doing a prewipe for dust control or from wet sanding.
Looks verrrrrrrry familiar .

[Prashun Patel]

I was just thinking - what product exactly are you using? Two of the Waterlox products come in voc compliant versions that might not perform as the original formulations do in mineral spirits. I don't know that from experience. It is just a theory.

[Alan Lightstone]

Waterlox looks just fine. Not jelly-like.

How can the mineral spirits stay on the surface? Don't they just evaporate.

I did wet sand with mineral spirits, as I have done many times in the past. Wiped them off when I was done. Waited some period of time afterwards before the next coat of Waterlox. Never had an issue before, FWIW.

Are you saying that if the mineral spirits were still on the surface than the Waterlox would bead up like this? Will this resolve, or do I need to sand down siginificantly (or to bare wood, which would just be awful.)

[Alan Lightstone]

I was just thinking - what product exactly are you using? Two of the Waterlox products come in voc compliant versions that might not perform as the original formulations do in mineral spirits. I don't know that from experience. It is just a theory.

It's the VOC Compliant Original Sealer/Finish. I have never used this particular formulation before. I guess my Woodcraft just started stocking it due to California's regulations, etc..

Prashun you bring up what may be the crux of the matter. I wonder is there is some solvent incompatibility issue with the new formulation of Waterlox and Low Odor Mineral Spirits.

I have to try to give them a call and ask tomorrow. Hmmm..... If there is an issue, it's really rotten on their part to not say so on the label of the can.

[Alan Lightstone]

Just checked the MSDS on Waterlox's web site. Any chemists out there?

The Original formulation had 74% Stoddard Solvent, 2% 1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene, 0.1% Ethylbenzene, and 0.2% cobalt naphthenate.

The new VOC Compliant formulation has 65% Paracholorobenzofluoride, 15% Naptha-Medium Aliphatic, <1% Stoddard Solvent, and <1% Cobalt Naphthenate.

Anyone who can make head or tails of that? Clearly the formulation has changed significantly.

I see that Stoddard solvent appears to be the same as mineral spirits, and they have essentially eliminated it from their formulation. So if you can't make wiping varnish from it with mineral spirits, what solvent can you use with it?

[Sam Murdoch]

Alan the only product I have ever used to thin Waterlox is Penetrol made by Hood. As for needing to sand, I'm guessing that yes you will need to sand the last coat applied. Not a bad idea to call Waterlox and hear what they recommend. Let us know please.

Sorry you are having problems. I gave up altogether on the Waterlox Satin because it was such a huge aggravation and soooooo much more work to get the finish to level out properly. Nearly ruined a beautiful cherry cabinet with it. The flattening agents in the "satin" never allowed for a smooth finish. Having said that I really love the Waterlox sealer as a finish, now that I understand the limitations of the long drying process.

[Alan Lightstone]

Just got off the phone with the nice people at Waterlox. They think that the previous coat wasn't dry (they are still insisting on 24 hrs between coats, not the lesser periods of time that everyone advocates for wiping varnish formulations). She also said that the new formulation is incompatible with the old formulation on the same piece (so no using VOC compliant and original formulation following each other.)

Even though the MSDS states that mineral spirits have gone from about 65% down to less than 1% in the VOC compliant formula, they insist that the finish is compatible with mineral spirits. I plan to test that out on a test piece. But repeatedly she said that if it looks like water beading up on a waxed car (which this did in spots), it's due to the previous coat not being sufficiently dried.

So there is some sanding in my future. We'll see how far down I need to go.

Does this sound reasonable as to cause to everyone? There are tons of articles regarding wiping varnish that talk about recoating in as little as 4 hours, and certainly in 8 hours. Waterlox is sticking to 24hrs, which will make this finish take forever.

[Prashun Patel]

Alan, so are you saying you put the NEW formulation on top of the OLD formulation?

I'm out of my league on this, but I'll say that their respponse doesn't agree with my (modest) experience. Beading happens for me bkz of incompatibility - not poor drying. Poor drying for me (and I'm an impatient finisher, so it's happened a few times) results in a soft / tacky finish that either a) needs a couple more days to dry, or b) can be mostly wiped off with mineral spirits (I don't use many waterbased finishes).

Personally, I wouldn't think you need to sand. You might just need to use some ms to soften and remove the topmost coat you put on. Then clean the surface and continue with the previous topcoat.

[Alan Lightstone]

Alan, so are you saying you put the NEW formulation on top of the OLD formulation?

Frankly, I don't remember when I switched cans between the original formulation and the new. I think this piece was done just with the VOC compliant formulation, but I really can't be 100% sure.

She said that when you use one formulation over the other, it makes the finish crack. That's not what I am seeing. Mine looks like wax repelling water on a car (which she stated is caused by applying finish a previous coat too quickly).

I'm going to try doing a test piece later adding mineral spirits to the VOC compliant formulation. I'm real curious as to how it comes out.

Personally, I wouldn't think you need to sand. You might just need to use some ms to soften and remove the topmost coat you put on. Then clean the surface and continue with the previous topcoat.

Why would mineral spirits take off the last coat? Shouldn't it be curing at this point and impervious to mineral spirits? Am I wrong about that?

[Sam Murdoch]

Interesting - I have not had any of these issues but I was aware of mixing old and new formula - just never did that. Also, have no experience with that effect due to still wet under coat. Have seen it when I started finishing just after a generous mineral spirits wipe that was not yet totally evaporated. I believe that paint thinner is not the same as true mineral spirits and that may be an issue. My vote is that you will need to sand that last coat not just wipe it off. Finally, I use a brush. I tried a wipe once or twice and realized that it was too slow a process considering the results. Quite a learning curve with this stuff huh? Take heart Alan, you will soon be the Sawmill Creek Waterlox expert .