Tell me about the Naniwa Chosera water stones

[David Weaver]

they do cut fast, but if you run an iron in a guide over them over and over, they will dish because they are friable. If they weren't as friable, they wouldn't work as well on high speed steels.

you can do a trial for two weeks online and then cancel for free, and see the article during the trial period.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, David. So you're better off if you freehand, which would eliminate the guide use?

Also, I don't really want to fool with FWW again, still can't forget their useless and wrong chisel review some years ago, don't have any confidence in their ability to adequately test anything. Not that this is a failing, it's just a very hard thing to do well.

Jack

[Brian Ward]

That asked, why wouldn't the SPII's do well on basic steels? Stu's site says they cut amazingly fast. That's not true for O1?

They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

[Jack Curtis]

They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

I got a Bester 1k this week to celebrate JWW's free shipping, it arrived today. But then I saw Stu's 1k-6k-13k SP package, and started to rue the Bester buy. Now I'm starting to think that the SP 1k could probably be the soft version, which might come in handy here and there. I don't know. Every time I try to overhaul my sharpening regimen I get bored trying to choose from all the good choices, go right back to same old same old when it stops raining.

Jack

[Archie England]

They do work very fast on O1 and A2, but as others have mentioned, though, they dish a lot faster. I actually use a Select II 10k as my finishing stone, but I'd say my SP 1k is my most important stone now because it just doesn't like to dish, and raising the burr is what takes me the most time. Jay van Arsdale told me that he's a big fan of his Bester 1k for basically the same reason--cuts fast and resists dishing.

For those of you, who are interested in thorough testing of about a dozen waterstones, please visit Stu Tierney's blog, http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/, for the quite definitive assessment of steel vs. stones. You'll have to sort through back months to find the six part series on testing. What's provided is extremely well documented, well organized, and massively overwhelming. What Stu provides, however, is a fantastic assessment and ranking of the major attributes desirable in waterstones. Now, the one caveat is this, the testing is most focused only on the 1000 stones, so there's little help on the higher grit comparisons.

One for instance, from my experience: Arkansas soft and hard are approximately 4x slower cutting than the Norton 1000. The Norton is about 5x slower than the Sigma Power ceramic 1000. The Chosera 1000, Bester 1200, and Arashiyama 1000 are all relatively the same speed as the Chosera and Sigma Power. I suspect from what David Weaver and Wilbur Pan have said, that the Shapton products easily fit in this fastest category, as well. The Sigma Select IIs, however, are described as chainsaws in an axe cutting contest. Speed is not always the most important trait. Hence, I'll take a firmer stone over one that's softer; a better dish resistant one vs. one easily misshaped; the longer lasting stone vs one used up hurriedly; a stone that forms a great slurry vs one just moving dark swarf around. Others prefer non-soakers, which is not an issue for me. Too often "we" discuss our pet stones as if they are the best in every category--and that's just not the case. All these stones work, as do the older King Waterstones and a host of diamond surfaces and sandpaper strips. In a sense, it's like buying tools...get the best you can buy because the cheaper tools don't satisfy you for long!!!

just one man's opinion...

[Brian Ward]

I got a Bester 1k this week to celebrate JWW's free shipping, it arrived today. But then I saw Stu's 1k-6k-13k SP package, and started to rue the Bester buy. Now I'm starting to think that the SP 1k could probably be the soft version, which might come in handy here and there. I don't know. Every time I try to overhaul my sharpening regimen I get bored trying to choose from all the good choices, go right back to same old same old when it stops raining.

Yup, I've been there. I'd say not to sweat those finer stones much; just get to know your Bester 1k now that you actually have it. I was amazed at how my attitude towards sharpening changed when I moved to a ceramic stone at this grit.

[Stuart Tierney]

Jack,

The soft takes the rule book and throws it out the window. The hard is fairly sterile, but very usable and gives enough feedback so you can work out what's going on. The soft has very good feedback, cuts even faster and is a lovely, lovely stone to use. The only stones I can compare it to honestly are the Chosera and large size Sigma soft (different stone).

And it's bombproof. You just can't kill them, and I've tried. Got one soaked in oil, one frozen, one glowing red hot. Still works like nothing happened to it. Except the oiled one, it cuts slower, but still works well enough.

But, hold your horses. A new #1200 is en route. More details as I get them. If it's any good, it'll be an option on the set...

Stu.

[Jack Curtis]

The soft takes the rule book and throws it out the window. The hard is fairly sterile, but very usable and gives enough feedback so you can work out what's going on. The soft has very good feedback, cuts even faster and is a lovely, lovely stone to use. The only stones I can compare it to honestly are the Chosera and large size Sigma soft (different stone).

And it's bombproof. You just can't kill them, and I've tried. Got one soaked in oil, one frozen, one glowing red hot. Still works like nothing happened to it. Except the oiled one, it cuts slower, but still works well enough.

But, hold your horses. A new #1200 is en route. More details as I get them. If it's any good, it'll be an option on the set...

Thanks, Stu, that sounds like one fine stone; but I'll wait until you can check out the 1200.

And Brian, you're right of course, and I do plan to run it through the paces; but I'm real interested in what I want to use to follow it in the finer grits.

Jack

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks, Stu, that sounds like one fine stone; but I'll wait until you can check out the 1200.

And Brian, you're right of course, and I do plan to run it through the paces; but I'm real interested in what I want to use to follow it in the finer grits.

Jack

If nothing else get a Sig 6k. That stone is magical! I can't compare it to all that much but to me it seems like it is cutting faster than its grit range, yet polishing finer than its grit range. The more I use that stone the more I love it.

If my set of sigs was destroyed, that would be the first one I'd replace (really I'd replace the whole set, but....). I think I could probably be happy with any number of 1k stones and 8K or higher stones, but I would have no idea what is out that could do what the 6k could do.

[David Weaver]

Thanks, David. So you're better off if you freehand, which would eliminate the guide use?

With a big fat flat bevel on a japanese iron, freehand, yes. And with a hollow grind, yes.

The test that FWW did sharpened the entire bevel of hardened steel, which I think is pointless when using a soft stone. it will dish and the following stone will not cut the same surface as the prior stone did due to the dishing. IF there's no stone following (i.e., if the soft stone is the polishing stone) then it's no big deal - a soft finishing stone is sometimes nice to use, but you lose the feel that makes it nice in a jig, anyway.


If you're freehanding, you can go over the stone, cover the entire surface, and it'll still get out of flat some, but it'll be much less, and you can run the iron over the surface in all directions, as opposed to using a guide, essentially creating a rut and then working an iron in that rut. The "rut" is only a couple of thousandths deep, but cutting a full several thousandths out of a face of hardened steel is a good bit of work.

The SPIIs would be just fine for microbeveling, and especially when it's gummy stuff like M2 or worse where the harder stones will load a little bit on their surface, compromise the speed of the cut and compromise the quality of the edge.

If FWW wanted to do a real-world test where they work a large metal area, they could've worked irons fresh off of an accurate surface grinder.

Tests where one single method is applied to everything don't do justice to the fact that someone who gets to know their stones will figure out how best to use them. Familiarity is important to get the best results - stones you don't like at first become favorable with use.

[Jack Curtis]

If nothing else get a Sig 6k. That stone is magical! I can't compare it to all that much but to me it seems like it is cutting faster than its grit range, yet polishing finer than its grit range. The more I use that stone the more I love it.

If my set of sigs was destroyed, that would be the first one I'd replace (really I'd replace the whole set, but....). I think I could probably be happy with any number of 1k stones and 8K or higher stones, but I would have no idea what is out that could do what the 6k could do.

Wow, many thanks, that kind of cements the decision to go with the SP 1-6-13 package (or 1.2-6-13), with the SP 1 soft. I've had no real joy with the Shapton 5k, so much so that I've been using the natural Aoto 4k instead before going to any of several natural honers and polishers; but this all feels so ad hoc at times, which it is. It will be great to have a set procedure before deviating to the naturals as needed.

Jack

[Jack Curtis]

...If you're freehanding, you can go over the stone, cover the entire surface, and it'll still get out of flat some, but it'll be much less, and you can run the iron over the surface in all directions, as opposed to using a guide, essentially creating a rut and then working an iron in that rut. The "rut" is only a couple of thousandths deep, but cutting a full several thousandths out of a face of hardened steel is a good bit of work....

OK. I always figured that dishing was the result of an iron being sharpened, which it is, so the iron being sharpened would be sharpened, regardless of the dishing resulting from the process. All I have to do is a combination of avoiding the potentially dished areas by using the whole stone and making sure to take very full strokes so the full iron is equally affected by any dished areas. This approach seems to have worked, but it may have caused me a little extra work.

But then I'm more casual about level stones. Most of mine are natural water stones of irregular shape, which if flattened would be non-existent.

As to FWW, it's too expensive to do a quality stone test/evaluation. They'd need to be a $1000/issue technical journal that would allow them to buy equipment and people.

Jack

[Chris Griggs]

Wow, many thanks, that kind of cements the decision to go with the SP 1-6-13 package (or 1.2-6-13), with the SP 1 soft. I've had no real joy with the Shapton 5k, so much so that I've been using the natural Aoto 4k instead before going to any of several natural honers and polishers; but this all feels so ad hoc at times, which it is. It will be great to have a set procedure before deviating to the naturals as needed.

Jack

The one thing I'll add about the 6k is that it is really very hard, but it's not dead at all and has a nice smooth feel. I actually have the slightly older model that Stu sells, called the Jinzo Renge Suita which is ever so slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer and just a touch muddier. If your less partial to hard stones and you want something with just a little more mud (but thats still fairly hard) you might want to consider that one. I've used my 6k (the Jinzo) side by side with Archie's 6k which is the current version. Both of us could hardly tell a difference, and I really can't say I prefer one over the other. Once again, mine just feels ever so slightly less hard and ever so slightly muddier.

Just some food for thought.

[Stuart Tierney]

The one thing I'll add about the 6k is that it is really very hard, but it's not dead at all and has a nice smooth feel. I actually have the slightly older model that Stu sells, called the Jinzo Renge Suita which is ever so slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer and just a touch muddier. If your less partial to hard stones and you want something with just a little more mud (but thats still fairly hard) you might want to consider that one. I've used my 6k (the Jinzo) side by side with Archie's 6k which is the current version. Both of us could hardly tell a difference, and I really can't say I prefer one over the other. Once again, mine just feels ever so slightly less hard and ever so slightly muddier.

Just some food for thought.

Chinese milk vetch abrasive man-made nest plate finish ■ # 355 902 # 6000 # 6000 will be ruined ceramic products.
(Middle / see attached, far right).

That's what google translate spits out, after I asked about baseless 6K ceramics the other day.

(Getting an idea of how difficult it is sometimes???)

What it tells me is that the Jinzo is supposed to be the ceramic 6K. The slightly softer feel is, more than anything else, a difference in batches. I noticed it too, and the difference was very, very small but apparent.

I'm going to confirm this, and if they repeat that the Jinzo is the 6K without a base, then I've gotta go with that.

What's odd is that I've special ordered 6K without bases, and they weren't marked up as Jinzo stones. Missing that stamp on the top.

Stu.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks again, Chris, I'll remember to ask Stu about this when ready to order. The Jinzo may not still be available.

Jack