What is advantage of spray system that comes with turbine vs. using air compressor?

[Will Blick]

Other than lower noise, what would be the reason you would buy a system with its own compressed air supply vs. standard air compressor? Such as...

Is the quality of the Fuji sprayer itself any better than a $99 compressed air sprayer? Or is the high cost tied up in the compressed air system?

[David Hawxhurst]

turbine - self contained which makes it portable.

compressors - usually not portable. more guns are made for compressor type systems (currently). have been around longer and are capable of putting down a better finsh (user dependent).

for the money of a fuji q4 pro you could buy and set-up a compressor based system that would equal the fuji.

do you need it to be portable?
willl you be doing automotive painting?

[Matt Meiser]

Actually a turbine is probably louder. Think big screaming shop vac loud. Its significantly louder than my oiled compressor. Oil-less compressors might be louder.

I have a $99 spray gun with a big compressor and an turbine system. Even though my turbine is an older bleeder-style system, I like it a lot better than the compressor-driven gun.

[Sam Hamory]

Will,

The advantage of HVLP over a compressed air system is overspray. With conventional compressed air you will get about 30% overspray with HVLP it's down to about 5%. This repesents a huge savings in wasted material, cleanup and time spent. HVLP provides a soft smooth spray pattern that is meant for furniture/cabinetry type finishes.
The noise for most HVLP is not louder than a shop vac and doesn't use nearly the electric or shop space that compressed air uses.
HVLP also eliminates contamination issues which compressed air creates. You can get a great HVLP for about $300. You can easily spend $300 on systems you have to add to compressed air just to eliminate contamination from moisture and oil.
HVLP is the future of spray finishing. Compressed air is the past.

[Jason Roehl]

Personally, I prefer combo HVLP systems--they come with a small internal compressor to pressurize the cup/tank, then use the turbine to atomize the material. I've never much cared for siphon-type spray guns, they're just too finicky, and you have to spray to clean them. A combo system can be cleaned with just the compressor running, which will force out a stream of fluid from the tip without atomizing it.

[Daniel Berlin]

Will,

The advantage of HVLP over a compressed air system is overspray. With conventional compressed air you will get about 30% overspray with HVLP it's down to about 5%. This repesents a huge savings in wasted material, cleanup and time spent. HVLP provides a soft smooth spray pattern that is meant for furniture/cabinetry type finishes.

Actually, newer HTE (high transfer efficiency) or RP (reduced pressure) guns have about the same transfer efficiency as a typical HVLP gun.
Also, studies show that technique matters a lot more than gun

The Iowa Waste Reduction Center did very detailed studies on this (using a grant from the EPA), and their findings on transfer efficiency were:

Conventional (not HTE/RP) spray gun = 40%
HVLP spray guns without training = 49%
HVLP spray guns with training = 61%

Here "training" was literally videotaping people spraying (these were auto body shop experts, not random folks), correcting their technique, and then having them respray. They also later developed virtual training (http://www.iwrc.org/default/index.cf.../virtualpaint/) and a neat little gun attachment called "laserpaint" that uses two lasers that converge when you are holding the gun at the correct distance and angle, so you can always see whether you are holding it in the right place.

Anyway, my point is if you are going to spend the money on an HVLP system with the hope of reducing wastage, you should probably have someone teach you proper technique

[Scott Holmes]

Also HVLP systems are slower than conventional and MUCH slower than Air-Assisted Airless spray systems.

[Curt Harms]

There is a LOT of air coming out of a turbine setup compared to a compressor HVLP conversion gun. Things like drop cloths may flap if not secured and any dust may be stirred up if the space used for spraying is not pretty clean. OTOH turbine HVLP systems are portable, they warm the air somewhat which may or may not be a benefit and no oil contamination. Older HVLP conversion guns were air hogs, they required substantial compressors. Newer LVLP (low volume low pressure) guns will work with compressors capable of 6-8 CFM@ 40 PSI.

[Clisby Clark]

A note on turbine noise...I use a Minimite 4 Fuji (the "loud" one) with the turbine about 16=18 feet from the booth and never even notice the noise. I'm sure it's there, but when I'm spraying, I'm concentrating on the work to the point of zoning out the noise.

[Will Blick]

Thank you for great replies.... but I am somewhat still confused what is best for me... partly because I did a poor job describing my work type, volume, etc.
First, I don't need portability, work in my own shop...have 60 gallon compressed air tank near me.... however, my fear was, it is an oil pump....I do however have an oil-less compressor as well which I use for another purpose, but I guess it can do double duty. I only do ww finishes such as poly, but want to start using some varnishes, shellac, etc.

I own the Fuji I posted picture of, new in a box, with whip hose, but never used it.... got it in a trade a few years ago, seemed like it was a good deal at the time. I don't do high volume finishing, and often finished with a brush, mainly due to low hassle factor, and I hate cleaning stuff. I also use a Harbor Freight HVLP, which worked surprisingly well. I will never spray autos. Most of my projects are small, maybe bookshelves a few times a year... a few doors I plan to do, will be nice to spray those vs. brush....

So if I wanted to move forward and start spraying more projects, should I sell the Fuji new in a box, as its quite a costly system? Maybe all I need is a good spray gun with regular compressor? I assume very little oil makes it into the air stream, as I do have filters on it...

Sam.... your response was compelling.... First, why do you refer to the Fuji as HVLP, but not compressed air systems as HVLP? And from what you write, it seems the Fuji lays down a better finish...waste is not a big deal to me, as I don't do enough volume for the cost to be an issue. But thx for pointing that out...

I also really liked the 3m system EZ Clean system, but its not available for the Fuji, I assume because its a siphon feed. I love the no-clean concept. Or is this not as appealing as I think it would be???

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=19627

26601-01-200.jpg

Hopefully now that I have better described my situation.... what direction would you suggest I go? If the Fuji is not right for me, I rather sell it NEW vs. used, as no one likes buying used goods, hence this post...

[Daniel Berlin]

Thank you for great replies.... but I am somewhat still confused what is best for me... partly because I did a poor job describing my work type, volume, etc.
First, I don't need portability, work in my own shop...have 60 gallon compressed air tank near me.... however, my fear was, it is an oil pump....I do however have an oil-less compressor as well which I use for another purpose, but I guess it can do double duty. I only do ww finishes such as poly, but want to start using some varnishes, shellac, etc.

I own the Fuji I posted picture of, new in a box, with whip hose, but never used it.... got it in a trade a few years ago, seemed like it was a good deal at the time. I don't do high volume finishing, and often finished with a brush, mainly due to low hassle factor, and I hate cleaning stuff. I also use a Harbor Freight HVLP, which worked surprisingly well. I will never spray autos. Most of my projects are small, maybe bookshelves a few times a year... a few doors I plan to do, will be nice to spray those vs. brush....

Hopefully now that I have better described my situation.... what direction would you suggest I go? If the Fuji is not right for me, I rather sell it NEW vs. used, as no one likes buying used goods, hence this post...

What they call 3m ez-clean is the 3m PPS system, which is certainly available for the Fuji. See http://www.fujispray.com/technical.htm#3m_pps_system

That said, what Sam says is not quite right. The non-turbine HVLP guns are just as efficient as the turbine ones. In fact, some are significantly more efficient (10-20%) than turbine guns.
The advantages of turbines are basically portability and lack of contaminants. People take these to spray cabinets at people's homes. You can't move a 60 gallon compresor and finish stuff on site, and dragging air hose in the front door and around corners doesn't go over well .

The disadvantage is that finish wise, turbine guns, even nice ones like the fuji, tend to require more playing around with thinning to get a sprayable viscosity. (They also sometimes have issues with the heated turbine air causing flash drying, but the nice Fuji's, like yours, have long enough hoses/etc that it is unlikely you will hit this). On compressor based HVLP guns (usually called conversion guns), you can turn up the atomization pressure if you don't feel like fighting (though this increases overspray). In a production environment, if you are thinning, you are mostly wasting time spraying solvent instead of finish (it's also more expensive).

You in no way need an oil-less compressor for spraying. You just need a good filter before it gets to your gun to avoid "accidents" (fisheyes, craters, etc). This is true even with an oilless, because you will still get moisture in tubes (if you take 60 gallons air at 60% humidity, and compress it to 1/10th it's space, the water has to go somewhere) , I use a devilbiss QC-3. It's fairly cheap, it filters to a more than adequate level, and the replacement dessicant cartridges are cheap.

The upside of spraying using a conversion gun is that you have more control over things like air pressure, CFM rate, etc. You can spray almost anything. The downside is that there are more knobs to tweak, and it takes a while to understand how and what to tweak them if something is going wrong.

The difference in price between guns is basically "how well does it atomize", "how much fiddling do i have to do", "how much tech support do i get", and "how much air does it require". That is, a $800 gun may be able to get you a fine finish at 85% efficiency at 29psi @ 10CFM. I could probably call up the tech at midnight and get answers about some arcane issue and have it solved in 10 minutes. They'll have replacement parts for 10+ years. etc A $400 gun may require 50psi@10CFM to atomize the same thing, and may only get 75% efficiency. For an auto shop, this stuff matters. Efficiency wise alone, if you spray 100 gallons a year, and can save 10 gallons of auto paint, it pays back fairly quickly For you, it doesn't make a lick of difference. Pretty much any gun you could get that is in the "middle" range, would be fine. Basically, you would want to get into the "QA control is good and gun is precisely machined" range. For a conversion gun, this is often $250-300 with an appropriate set of tips, etc.
*However*, Given your main issue is cleaning and frustration, if you want to move forward, and start spraying more, the Fuji is probably the best thing for you anyway.
The frustration factor on your Fuji is going to be basically nil. Fuji has great tech support. There are less knobs to worry about. As long as you get within the proper viscosity range, it'll almost certainly lay down a nice finish. If all you want to do is spray a few gallons of finish each year on a dozen or so projects, once you figure out what you need to do to your finish to get it to the right viscosity (and fuji probably knows exactly what to do off the top of their head for almost all finishes you can find), it'll likely take no time at all to get a good finish.

Cleanup wise, i'm not going to lie, you will find that spraying small projects may take longer in cleanup time than in total finish time. Still significantly faster than brushing, and if you are not using disposable foam brushes, and are cleaning say a taklon brush or something, cleaning a spray gun *well* takes about as much time.


In short, this wall of text I wrote basically says you are probably overthinking this for the amount of finishing you do. You should probably just go spray some stuff with your Fuji, and be done with it.

[Curt Harms]

An observation of "siphon" guns. Just because a cup is under the gun doesn't necessarily make it a siphon gun. The Earlex 5000 only produces about 2 or 2.5 p.s.i. pressure but will feed pretty thick material because the cup is pressurized. I don't know if the Fuji's cup is pressurized or not. 2 p.s.i. +/- pressure in the Earlex cup doesn't seem like much but it feeds fairly viscous material better than I expected.

[Matt Meiser]

The PPS system is great. Its fairly expensive to get started and I put it off for a while until I found a great deal on the starter system. Then I found a great deal on the cups and lids on eBay. If you are using WB finishes, there's not much sense in throwing the cups away after 1 use since you can easily rinse them out. But it still offers an advantage in that you can spray sideways, upside down, whatever and pretty much use every last drop in the cup. Also, the ability to store some finish in a cup with all the air removed is handy.

Cleaning up after WB spraying only takes a couple minutes. Dump the cup and rinse (or put in a new one if) then fill with warm water. Spray that to clean out the gun. Disassemble the tip area and drop all the parts in a cup. Spray everything with floor stripper (tip from a friend) and clean off any gunk, rinse with hot water, and set it all out to dry.

You've got a decent gun and a compressor that supports it. I say go for it.

[Sam Hamory]

I would agree that the system you have is more than enough to do the finishing you need to do, I would not get rid of it. And yes you can add the PPS system to it and I would.
HVLP is High Volume Low Pressure, these are systems that push less than 10psi, they use a turbine, not a compressor. Conversion guns work with compressors with an extra gauge that allows you to dial it down to the pressure you want. Usually these are still set to about 25psi which is way above HVLP qualification. I like the compact size, constant airflow, clean dry air and ease of cleanup that I get with my HVLP system.

[Daniel Berlin]

An observation of "siphon" guns. Just because a cup is under the gun doesn't necessarily make it a siphon gun. The Earlex 5000 only produces about 2 or 2.5 p.s.i. pressure but will feed pretty thick material because the cup is pressurized. I don't know if the Fuji's cup is pressurized or not. 2 p.s.i. +/- pressure in the Earlex cup doesn't seem like much but it feeds fairly viscous material better than I expected.

The Fuji he has should be pressurized, which is why it requires special 3m pps stuff.