Interesting email I recieved today......

[Glen Butler]

Going back to the original post . . .

The line items in the email are simply numbers and percentages. Now, I only know what I have been told or read, but just a couple months ago Rush Limbaugh did a segment that sounded more hopeful than this doom and gloom, and he is usually doom and gloom. He said essentially that even though manufacturing jobs seem to be lost oversees, the USA is still the largest exporter of goods in the world. Although I cannot recall the exact details, it was astounding how much the number of manufacturing jobs available and value of products exported by the US still exceeds any other nation, even China.

I currently have a manufacturing job and my company just got a contract back that went to China because they couldn't produce the piece to spec. I believe that manufacturing will continue to thrive in the US because China doesn't have the technology and capability for precision. They make junk. I personally have chosen not to purchase products made in China, with all the recalls and dangerous substances found in their products. On a few occasions, I haven't had the choice, because I knew of no other product to substitute, but I try my best.

[Scott Shepherd]

You succinctly describe the widely accepted paradigm. Business owners are the job creators and if you don't reduce the job creators tax burden (even though it is at a fifty year low), they will take their ball and go home. Game over. We've swallowed this pablum for so long now we've forgotten the most basic concept of business.

Consumers are the job creators. Without consumer demand for a goods or service, there is no business. No one ever hired a worker simply because of some short term tax incentive. At least no successful business. Conversely, show me one business that did not engage in a sensible commerce activity or investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain.

A strong, thriving consumer class raises all boats. By now it should be obvious that the supply side model at best did not work as advertised and at worst was a fraud.

Left to the whims of economic anarchy, 99% of us would be living in abject poverty, the likes as seen in third world nations. The middle class would not exist were it not for some basic ground rules.

Two points here- one- name me a single time in history,real life history, not theory, that raising taxes in a down economy created private sector jobs and turned the economy around. I'll wait for that example.

Second point- if you taxed the "rich" at 100% and took every single penny they earned, you couldn't begin to resolve this problem. So once you've taken all their money, the problem isn't solved and now there's no one left to invest in companies and create jobs, which is a downward spiral. So taxing isn't the solution. If it were the solution, you could increase taxes by "X" percent and it would solve some problem. However taxing at 100% doesn't resolve the problem. It's such a small number relative to the hole we're in, you won't even see a ripple in the pond from it. So if taxing is the answer, yet you can't tax more than 100%, how's that going to solve the problem? In fact, it'll make the problem worse, because those "job creators" will now have no income. I don't know too many business owners that would stay around long making zero dollars for themselves.

You can't tax your way out of this issue, there's not enough money there to tax. So what will you do, tax the rich at 600% so you can resolve the problem? The only way to resolve the issue, is as mentioned by a previous post, is to grow your way out of it. You can't grow your way out of something when you the people that "grow" things won't take any action because you're going to penalize them.

The amount they want to tax the rich is so small, you couldn't build a bridge to nowhere with it. If it's that small of any amount, relative to the situation we're in, let's head back to the drawing board and figure out a solution that resolves the problem, rather than just prolongs it for the next generation.

[Chuck Wintle]

not trying to minimize the economic problems in the us but, as a rule, capital will generally go where the best deal is found in terms of wages, laws and lowest government interference. what is happening in the us has happened to other countries in the past. In my view jobs will continue to leave the us for asia regardless of whatever jobs bill may come from the government. In fact the government is borrowing from paul to pay peter. The next generations be footing the bill. As one poster said wages paid in asia are too low for americans. the cost efficiencies of setting up in china are too great. I am still wondering why jeffery immelt is sitting on the economic recovery board when his own company, GE, is moving thousands of jobs to china. The fox seems to be guarding the hen house?

[Larry Edgerton]

Very interesting discussion on a subject that concerns me very much. The original post was put up for just this reason. I appreciate all of the different views, and if the US was populated with people such as the members in this discussion, I do not believe we would be in this discussion at all. We have a very level headed group here.

I, like Glen, do what I can to purchase American made products. We are led to believe that nationalism is a bad thing on many fronts, and at a governmental level I would agree. But at the consumer level it is a vote to support your neighbor, and in turn a vote for yourself. At my insignificant size, it is my only real vote.

I work for on a personal level CEOs almost without execption, and many have become friends to the extent that we have long conversations most often about the current economic climate. I used to be one of those "punish the rich" sort of resentful people, until I got to know some of the people that I once resented. I have since learned that for the most part, of course with a few exceptions, these people are extremely motovated, very intelligent individuals that work very hard indeed to get where they are, and that further they are the people that make things happen. They are the leaders, and we do need leaders as most people are sheep. They are the ones that make things happen. Now I will agree that there are a lot of CEOs that are not any more than psychopaths that have no interest beyond their own personal gain[ watch GE] but they are the exception rather than the rule I would hazzard to guess. I am a firm believer that one should not be punished by taxation disproportionally just because they are willing to work harder that the average. The average citizen resents these people, but they were not willing to make the commitment it takes to be excellent in the first place, and so as is most often the case they are in the position that they are in because of this lack of commitment, and natural talent to some extent.

We only hear about the bad CEO's, there are thousands and thousands that are excellent and are the spark plugs in our economic engine.

I know we can not discuss politics, but I do not believe further government intervention is the answer. A basic change in attitude of the general public seems to be in order, a move away from the idea that we are entitled to certian things, and away from the idea that what is good for us alone is all we are concerned with.

Must run, its Sunday, but as a small business owner, there is no rest......

Larry

[Leo Graywacz]

Two points here- one- name me a single time in history,real life history, not theory, that raising taxes in a down economy created private sector jobs and turned the economy around. I'll wait for that example.

Second point- if you taxed the "rich" at 100% and took every single penny they earned, you couldn't begin to resolve this problem. So once you've taken all their money, the problem isn't solved and now there's no one left to invest in companies and create jobs, which is a downward spiral. So taxing isn't the solution. If it were the solution, you could increase taxes by "X" percent and it would solve some problem. However taxing at 100% doesn't resolve the problem. It's such a small number relative to the hole we're in, you won't even see a ripple in the pond from it. So if taxing is the answer, yet you can't tax more than 100%, how's that going to solve the problem? In fact, it'll make the problem worse, because those "job creators" will now have no income. I don't know too many business owners that would stay around long making zero dollars for themselves.

You can't tax your way out of this issue, there's not enough money there to tax. So what will you do, tax the rich at 600% so you can resolve the problem? The only way to resolve the issue, is as mentioned by a previous post, is to grow your way out of it. You can't grow your way out of something when you the people that "grow" things won't take any action because you're going to penalize them.

The amount they want to tax the rich is so small, you couldn't build a bridge to nowhere with it. If it's that small of any amount, relative to the situation we're in, let's head back to the drawing board and figure out a solution that resolves the problem, rather than just prolongs it for the next generation.

Here is a video that pretty much proves your point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ

[Brian Elfert]

I shop at Walmart and I am far from poor. I also shop at Target, Kohl's, and other discount type stores. I want my money to go as far as it can. I will try to buy Made in the USA where possible, but it isn't always possible.

Let's say I wanted to buy a silicone basting brush. I highly doubt I would ever find one made in the USA without perhaps going online to order one. I suspect even one I found in the housewares dept at Macy's would still be made outside of the USA.

There was a brand of hand operated can openers Made in the USA. The owner of company died and a new corporate owner took over. The new owner closed the USA plant in 2009 and shifted production to China. Our Boy Scout troop really wanted to buy this particular can opener because they are quite durable and they were made in the USA. The Scoutmaster was disappointed to learn they are now made in China.

I used to buy Vermont American screwdriver bits exclusively because they were Made in the USA. They shifted production to China and the new bits are different and not quite as nice. I can no longer find any screwdriver bits made in the USA, but I haven't looked extensively either.

[Mike Henderson]

I, also, have had the opportunity to work with some very talented and driven people. To me, it's a tribute to our economic system and country that they were able to take advantages of the opportunities afforded them and build the companies they did. They should be richly rewarded as an incentive to others to do the same.

At the same time, we need to do everything possible to make it possible for others who are not born into wealth to accomplish the same thing. Not so much for that individual, but for our country. When talented, driven people rise, we all benefit. So I advocate policies that provide support for those born without wealth to (first of all) get a good education, because education changes lives, to have equal opportunity, and to have a level economic field.

Providing some of those advantages requires that we spend a certain amount of money. The wealthy people in our society should pay their fair share, like everyone else. Especially since their success may have been helped by those exact policies in the past.

Mike

[For example, I was able to get a college education although I came from a poor family. Today, I doubt if I would be able to do that.]

[Brian Elfert]

China can produce stuff that is every bit as good as stuff made in other countries. It is all in what the importer specs. The iPhone and iPad are both made in China and I don't hear many complaints about the quality. Most cell phones (and indeed most electronics) are now made in China.

I have seen some high end electronics products where they shifted production to China. I can't tell any difference between the two items other than the Made in China sticker.

I would much rather buy stuff made in the USA, but it becomes more difficult by the day. It is hard to believe some of the cost differences between an American item and a Chinese item. I've seen tools where the American one is $75 and the Chinese one is $15. The American one is finished nicer than the Chinese one, but the item was not a precision tool that requires a nice finish.

If the importer says they want the cheapest crow bar possible they'll get get something that is rough and resembles something cast in the backyard sandbox. If they spec they want a smooth finish without cost being a real issue they'll get a nice product.

[Greg Peterson]

Scott - I'm all for tax cuts. But how much more can they be cut? They are already at a fifty year low. Raising taxes on business in the past has forced them to reinvest their capital gains into their business rather than pay taxes on those gains. Something as simple as painting the building, upgrading office equipment or the repair shop buying a new state of the art alignment rack. Business's are consumers too. The smart money goes to reinvesting those gains rather than pulling them out of the business and investing in whatever investment product Wall Street is currently promoting.

I think for the sake of clarity we need to establish a definition of 'rich'. IMO, how one earns their income should not matter. The gals and guys that punch a time clock and produce a good or provide a service should not have a higher percentage of their compensation taxed than someone whose income is generated from picking winners and losers on Wall Street. There are relatively few tax loopholes for the average wage earner. I just don't see the current arrangement as equitable.

When you look at the board of directors on the largest corporations, it is is a veritable Who's Who of the corporate elite. You have folks whose sole source of income is simply being a member of a board of directors. Small business, namely owner/operator corporations are the engine that drives the economy. The free market ought to be reward enough to those that want to bring a good or service to market. If they have something that meets or generates consumer demand, they will be rewarded with revenue.

I also read others talk about regulations need to be relaxed or removed. Sounds fine, but they need to provide some specifics. This is a large, complicated society and I would imagine some regulations are out dated or obsolete. However, consumer safety, clean air and water should not be on the table.

[mark r johnson]

I too am a small business owner; in fact more than one. You could reduce my tax load to nothing and it will not add one single employee to the staff. Consumers are what I need to build my business. So many consumers have been taken out of the purchasing market over the last few years.

I don't mind paying my share of taxes and not mine losing those deductions (like home loans) to do so. I would be just as comfortable living in an 8,000 sq ft house instead of my current 12,000 sq ft. I often thank my kids for paying part of my house payment.

[Scott Shepherd]

Here is a video that pretty much proves your point.

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. Exactly what I was talking about.

Big fat companies employee people. People like you and me.

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't mind paying my share of taxes and not mine losing those deductions (like home loans) to do so. I would be just as comfortable living in an 8,000 sq ft house instead of my current 12,000 sq ft. I often thank my kids for paying part of my house payment.

No one's stopping you from paying more. You are free to pay all the taxes you want. The IRS even has a place setup to take anything extra you'd like to give. So let's see some of the big mouth fat cats like Buffett who thinks his taxes are too low to whip out the old check book and write a check to Uncle Sam for what he thinks is fair.

[Greg Peterson]

Big fat companies employee people. People like you and me.

So long as they have customers they do. Business 101. I simply fail to understand why big business is held up on a pedestal as some kind of super citizen. They meet a consumer demand, meaning they fill a void in the supply line. Why they should be rewarded above and beyond what the market will bare, needs to be explained to me.

Back in 1993, for a 1,000 acre site, Alabama paid $77.5 million to improve water, sewer, gas, and electrical services, $92.2 million to improve and develop the factory site, and $60 million to train employees that would be working at the Mercedes-Benz factory. M-B also received a twenty year exemption on property taxes. The plant was expected to employ about 1,500 workers. That works out to about $200k per job.

I understand these jobs were going to end up in someones back yard, so whoever made the best offer was going to most likely get the plant. But it's a race to the bottom. Does the state really ever get a return on that investment? Does a small business owner get the same breaks as a multinational corporation?

Wall Street has demonstrated time and again their allegiance to greed and the quick buck. It's time we start doing what we can to keep our dollars as close to home as possible. The market should be rewarding the winners and punishing the losers.

[Kevin W Johnson]

Ah, if it were only so simple. There are lots of people who are so poor that they cannot pay for health insurance. People who lost their jobs and their health insurance are a good example. When you have no income, how are you to buy health insurance?

Mike

And likely an equal number of people who COULD afford insurance, but choose not too. Because doing so would mean giving up the cable/satellite tv, cigs, multiple cell phones, etc. A two pack a day habit can be $300 a month by itself. Add $100 or so for cable and high speed internet, cell phone plans aren't cheap, so add another $100-200 a month depending on the number of phones.

I personally don't have a problem in figuring how to take care of those who CAN'T, but have no intention of doing so for those who WON'T.


As for manufacturing jobs, i've seen one comment that touched on this. Wages are still a small portion of the reason for job losses to overseas locations. EXCESSIVE taxes, regulation, healthcare costs, liabilities, EPA regs, OSHA, etc., are a bigger cost concern for businesses. Now, don't take that as me saying we should not have EPA regs, OSHA, etc. But when companies don't have to deal with that in other countries, it puts us at an unfair disadvantage when a company factors their total cost to do business here, vs. overseas.

[Kevin W Johnson]

No one's stopping you from paying more. You are free to pay all the taxes you want. The IRS even has a place setup to take anything extra you'd like to give. So let's see some of the big mouth fat cats like Buffett who thinks his taxes are too low to whip out the old check book and write a check to Uncle Sam for what he thinks is fair.

Yeah, why is it the folks who complain taxes are too low, NEVER send the IRS an extra check.