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Thread: Shellac vs. Poly?

  1. #16
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    I surprised people haven't commented that you can actually have the best of both worlds here: apply a sealer coat of shellac to add depth to the grain and "warm up" the color, then apply a poly finish coat. In my experience, poly is a good choice for something that will get lots of handling and abuse, like a table or a chair. And if you want a really shiny finish, it buffs up quite well.

    If you're going to head in the shellac direction, do a little research into French polishing, which is a technique that gives dark woods, especially, a deep and rich look. What you should know, however, is that the reason shellac is easily repaired is because it's solvent is alcohol, and it emulsifies easily. That's good if you want to repair it, but if somebody puts something with alcohol on it (a drink, or some cleaners) it will turn into a gooey mess.

    Personally, my preference is for two coats of shellac, steel wooling the surface with four-ought after each coat, then 6-8 very thin coats of lacquer. But that's just me. In my shop, I have a perennial dust problem, and I like both of these finishes because they dry quickly, decreasing the likelihood of contamination.

    But we're all dying to know: What's the proposal plan? Give her the jewelry cabinet and have her find the engagement ring inside? Cool! Hope she says "I do."

    Russell Neyman
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    Writer - Woodworker - Historian
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    Puget Sound, Washington State


    "Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

  2. #17
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    I'm a shellac man. Cheese cloth and shellac = a warm rich finish. To put a little extra warmth use a wax that is close to the wood color. I like synthetic steel wool and apply a little wax, let dry and buff.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Holmes View Post
    Chris and Harvey,

    I know that both of you know that poly IS VARNISH. Better not to muddy the water.

    Harvey, how is shellac the easy way out and varnish the difficult process? I don't see much difference in ease of application; although the technique is different.

    As a side note: Padding a shellac finish is pretty close to fool-proof as is using a wipe-on varnish.

    All varnishes need approximately 30 days to cure. The dry-to-the-touch time can vary greatly.
    But I really enjoyed Muddy Waters - Mackinley Morganfield that is.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Holmes View Post
    Chris and Harvey,

    I know that both of you know that poly IS VARNISH. Better not to muddy the water.

    Harvey, how is shellac the easy way out and varnish the difficult process? I don't see much difference in ease of application; although the technique is different.

    As a side note: Padding a shellac finish is pretty close to fool-proof as is using a wipe-on varnish.

    All varnishes need approximately 30 days to cure. The dry-to-the-touch time can vary greatly.
    Scott, you use varnish a lot so I shouldn't need explain its difficulty unless you are wiping it on. Besides, I just had to take a jab at shellac lovers who don't hesitate to denigrate varnish. "Ew, varnish is plasticky looking."

    Indeed, poly is varnish, there is a whale of a lot of misinformation out there about poly. I have to disagree with you on the cure rate. My final finish is usually wet sanded and machine polished. With poly I can do this in 2-3 weeks depending on weather. But with alkyd varnish it has to go a full month before I can bring out a full lustre. (I use several different brands including the Ace store brands because it comes in 1/2 pt cans and I don't use a lot. There are variations in cure rates between them, but not much. We should note that different brands may behave differently, so we could both be right!
    Last edited by Harvey Pascoe; 09-07-2011 at 4:18 AM.

  5. #20
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    I should add here that I think the main criteria for finish choice should depend on how open the grain of your wood is and the smoothness of the finish you desire. If you have ever seen walnut finished with varnish where the grain is not completely filled, well, its pretty ugly. For a smooth finish you have to either fill the grain or build up a lot of varnish coats, sanding in between. My choice is always for the later.

    With shellac you can leave the grain open without it looking unfinished.

    Depending on the color of your walnut - it runs from gray to dark brown - the later does not do well with water base fillers as they change the color to a milky hue that I don't like.

    Finally, brushing varnish on a six-sided box is a tedious affair. Your chance of brushing on the vertical sides without runs or sagging is about nil. Therefore, you would have to brush on only the horizontal side, wait til that dries or sets, then turn the box and do another horizontal side. This gets very tedious with multiple coats. Scott asks why varnish is more difficult, well, there is your answer.

  6. #21
    Harvey-
    You're more professional than I, but I have to disagree with a couple of your points.

    First, I don't think shellac is the easy way out. In fact, I think the 'easiest' way out for me is wiping on varnish. I use that method on most of my projects.

    Second, I don't believe one needs a grain-filled surface with varnish to look professional. I happen to like the look of in-the-wood finishes that are not built up at all. I also think thinly built varnish finishes can look great as well - even on open grained woods like walnut. I do agree that once the varnish starts getting built thick - like in some marine applications, then it might look incomplete unless the grain is completely filled.

    And also, I'm not sure I've heard it said that all VARNISH looks plasticky; people take issue with polyurethane's plasticky appearance. I think that only manifests when the coating gets thick. However, on thin poly finishes, it's more difficult to visually tell the difference between it an its alkyd/phenolic counterparts.

    I like both shellac and varnish (poly and others). I think each has its merits. Being facile with all of them just gives more tools to work with.

  7. #22
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    This probably goes beyond the scope of the OP's original question, but one of the advantages of poly is that it can be buffed out with the Bealls-type systems. While my preferred finish is lacquer, I like the high-gloss results that the wipe-on polys offer. And I have to say, that sometimes on some woods it does look like plastic, but other times it just looks beautiful. Depends on the look you're going for.

    I saw a television show not long ago that recommended a third element for a deep, dramatic wood grain. It called for one or two coats of boiled linseed oil, two coats of amber shellac, and a topcoat of poly, carefully sanding between coats. This might be, actually, the best possible finish for this jewlery box.

    Russell Neyman
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    Writer - Woodworker - Historian
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    "Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    I certainly have not used all of the varnishes nor polys on the market but in my experience poly looks like a plastic film, varnish has a more "traditional" fine furniture look and feel to it. For this reason I don't recommend poly but I haven't used it on my work in years, perhaps the formulators have refined the product since I poo pooed it and it is better looking these days?
    I use them interchangably, Chris and see virtually no difference though there are plenty of differences in varnishes. I just bought some Interlux Schooner "traditional" varnish as its billed, that is tung oil based and wow, is it ever different. Gloss is noticeably higher but softer, too. And oddly it cures very fast, one hour to touch @ 80 degrees. As one who uses both on a daily basis, I'm not partial to either.

    As for the alleged ultimate hardness and durability of poly, I think that is baloney. Poly goes to its ultimate cure/hardness much faster than oil based but ultimately they become the same.
    Last edited by Harvey Pascoe; 09-08-2011 at 5:45 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Pascoe View Post
    As for the alleged ultimate hardness and durability of poly, I think that is baloney. Poly goes to its ultimate cure/hardness much faster than oil based but ultimately they become the same.
    That's generally true, but marine varnishes are formulated to remain soft so that they tolerate more expansion/contraction, agree?

    Russell Neyman
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    Writer - Woodworker - Historian
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    Puget Sound, Washington State


    "Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hamory View Post
    It's hard to screw up shellac and wax.
    I personally conducted "scientific" tests proving you wrong

    Seriously, it takes some practice to do shellac right. I'm not even sure how much practice because I gave up on brushing it and I now spray it instead. Especially large areas, such as table tops, require a steady hand. Smaller and narrower parts are easier though.

    I won't use shellac anywhere where even a slight chance of contact with alcohol is present, unless under a few chunky coats of a topcoat. I use dewaxed shellac mostly to bring out the warmth of the grain, and as a sanding sealer for blotchy wood, if I plan to stain it.

    I will use poly one in a while for very roughly handled surfaces but my preferred top coat is what I think is alkyd based varnish, specifically Pratt@Lambert #38. Takes little longer to cure than poly but the aded benefit is that is can be buffed to a ridiculously pretty sheen.
    To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion

  11. #26
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    I think it depends on what you want. There is no right answer from a technical perspective, just getting the appearance you want. Do you want the high shine, or do you like to feel the grain? It can look good with any finish if you are careful to prep it. If the project is simple, then keep the finish simple also. Care to show us a pic of how it looks?

  12. #27
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    Prashun, I was taking a poke at shellac lovers who often denigrate varnish. I am just doing a piece now with a buffed shellac finish an it is definitely not easier the way I do it. Every little flaw sticks out like a sore thumb, flaws that are easily filled with varnish, but not shellac.

    Russell, you can buff out any kind of varnish, even spar, you just have to wait a few weeks longer for full cure before it takes a shine. To get the maximum gloss you have to use a buffer at 3600 RPM. You can't get a full gloss by hand polishing, but what you can achieve is still very attractive, just slightly matte. A wipe on will give you nowhere near a high gloss.valet_box_V24-4.JPG

    This is what I mean by high gloss. This box has six coats of machine polished alkyd varnish.
    Last edited by Harvey Pascoe; 09-10-2011 at 5:16 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Pascoe View Post
    valet_box_V24-4.JPG

    This is what I mean by high gloss. This box has six coats of machine polished alkyd varnish.
    Dang Harvey. Now that's what I call a finish . . . I don't care who ya are! (shameless theft of Larry the Cable Guy's line . . .)
    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.
    Ayn Rand

  14. #29
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    Harvey, I purchased the Beall polishing system, and use it all the time with great results. I haven't had the courage, though, to use the full system (red tripoli + white diamond + wax) on new poly because I'm fearful the tripoli will be too aggressive. Have you?

    Of course, waxing everything I do really brings out the finish, too.

    Russell Neyman
    .


    Writer - Woodworker - Historian
    Instructor: The Woodturning Experience
    Puget Sound, Washington State


    "Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Neyman View Post
    Harvey, I purchased the Beall polishing system, and use it all the time with great results. I haven't had the courage, though, to use the full system (red tripoli + white diamond + wax) on new poly because I'm fearful the tripoli will be too aggressive. Have you?

    Of course, waxing everything I do really brings out the finish, too.
    Yes, tripoli is way too agressive. I use Menzerna which is wax based. The only reason I go to buffing is that it is the only way I can get a perfect finish. The resultant gloss is the same as between buffed and unbuffed.

    As for shellac "bringing out" anything I don't think so, whether I use shellac or not as a base, I find no perceptible difference in the result with a varnish overlay.

    Pat is exactly right, its all a matter of preference.

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