Is a Disston D12 really superior?

[Kory Cassel]

Wrong again, I stated an opinion. You attacked. I was addressing the thread. You were addressing me. You don't know who I am or what information I am privy to. I said something that challenged your own personally held beliefs, you got ugly. And no, I'm not offended. I'm just pulling your leg.

[Pete Taran]

Kory,

Well that's a relief! Please, in the future, do share your secret knowledge so we can all be enriched by it. To be clear, my "beliefs" as you call it, are fact based. As demonstrated in the thread. That was and is my point.

[Kory Cassel]

Yeah I love my D-8s. I was talking about the design change made by moving the grip closer to the tooth line. It makes my 30" D-8 rip easier to re-position than my far lighter 24" hardware store saw with its old style handle. People who tout the old style handles tend to talk about 'hang'. Like having the saw feel heavy and uncomfortable to lift with one hand is somehow a benefit.

[Kory Cassel]

Pete,

I'm a welder. I know marketing hyperbole about steel when I see it. It is hard to explain, but it's just very clear to see from my perspective. There is no such thing as magic steel. If any given no 12 is a superior saw, it is because of the craftsmanship of its construction and the condition of its sharpening. If you believe the 150 year old marketing copy and think there are special intangible, unmeasurable ingredients in a no 12 saw plate that created super steel for a super saw, then I will challenge that belief. It's like an audiophile trying to convince an electrician that his $1000/ft speaker cable is made from some special type of copper that sounds better.

Repeat after me: There is no such thing as magic steel!

[lowell holmes]

Like I said. I have a custom handle and the saw is the favorite of all my Disston saws.
I got it with a broken handle and had to make one. I have made handles for a D-7 as well.
When you take junker saws, re-tooth then and make new handles, you have a new saw.
If you don't like the handle on a saw, design and make a new one. I started making handles
when I bought a kit from Ron Bontz.

[Kory Cassel]

So it is a D-12 and not a no 12? The D-8 has that cutaway at the handle end of the saw plate that gets your grip in there closer than is possible with the old no 12s. If your saw is a D-12, I think it could possibly be either design. I'd have to check Disstonian about that. Sounds cool, can you post a pic?

[lowell holmes]

IMG_0306.jpg

Will this do? If you make your own grip, you can make it to fit you. The saw in the picture has a curly maple handle.

[Pete Taran]

Kory,

Again, read the thread. No one as talking about magic steel, except for you apparently. I heartily contend that the steel that the Disston #12 is made of has carbon and iron in it, just like the blades they made for the D8. I'll also agree that the craftsmanship is superior on the #12.

The main difference, and the point I made from the beginning, is that the way Disston tempered the blade on the #12 has EVERYTHING to do with what makes it such a great saw. The hardness figures don't lie. They are harder. Since the blade is harder, the steel can be thinner. Because the steel is thinner, it runs more easily because less wood is being removed. Just as you would not use a stick welder to weld stainless, Disston didn't apply less than the absolute highest hardness to their best saw because they had to for the thinner gauge they ground it to.

Repeat after me, you can temper the same steel differently, get different a different hardness, and use it differently. That's not hype, that's reality.

[Kory Cassel]

Please excuse the awful picture, but here is my rip -saw. I don't think the let-in grip moved very much compared to the old handles, but combined with the clipped point these are very easy to handle. I can't tell from your pic if your saw is this style, it looks like it.

[Stewie Simpson]

Without taking sides with Pete or Kory, the following information is provided within the Disstonion Institute site; http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/12page.html

Stewie;

What made the No. 12 saw more expensive and higher in quality was the work that went into it. The blade was subjected to more hammer work than lesser-quality saws to give tension to the steel. The controlled introduction of internal stresses into the cold steel through hammering and subsequent tempering, resulting in a "tensioned" saw blade, creates a blade that is less likely to wander or vibrate unnecessarily in use. An added result of this tensioning is a blade that has a characteristic ringing or "singing" sound when tapped. This ca. 1880 28" ripsaw is a baritone.

Another feature of the No. 12 handsaw is the extra taper in the blade. In order to reduce the amount of set required on the teeth, the No. 12 was ground thinner at the back than other models. Disston claimed the steel was harder in the No. 12 saw, which would enable the saw plate to be ground thinner while still remaining stiff enough stand up to mild abuse. After grinding and hammering, the blade was polished to almost a mirror finish.


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In 1928 all the saws in the Disston handsaw line were redesigned. One small change was the renaming of saws from the "No." designation to "D". For example, the No. 12 was changed to D-12. Disston announced other changes included narrower blades, harder steel, more taper in the blade, and different finish on the handle. Disston changed the finish from varnish to lacquer. After 1928 the handles had a closed top that covered the top of the blade, instead of the slit that was visible on the top of earlier saw handles. The blind slit in the new handles was matched in shape to the blade, resulting in a handle that was less likely to loosen from the saw. This feature was introduced in 1875 with the D-8 and Acme 120 saws. Unlike the earlier saws, the D-12 was not drastically different from other saws in the line, such as the D-8 and D-23. The quality and finish of the D-12 is comparable to that of those other saws. The saw nuts of the D-12 were nickel-plated brass, and the blade featured a high polish not given to the D-8.

[lowell holmes]

Make a drawing of what you want to build and go for it. If you have a saw that has an uncomfortable fit, modify it or make a new one.
It is a fun trip. Sketch a handle based on one you like and go from there.

[Kory Cassel]

Pete,

There were several comments along the course of the thread questioning the validity of the "Extra Refined London" marketing blabs Disston put into advertising their premium saws. I think if you had read what I wrote in that first post instead of going off on a rant, you would find that we don't actually disagree. You can temper the same steel differently, ABSOLUTELY YOU CAN. I was answering the THREADS question of why lowell's 7 performed as well or better than his no 12. Not attacking your hardness testing research or even that the no 12 is an intrinsically better tool. Never said that the no 12 was not harder, or thinner, or had any sort inferior craftsmanship compared to a no 7. Just saying super magic steel won't make a saw perform well if its not sharp, so a given no 7 can easily outperform a no 12.

[Kory Cassel]

But that's my point, this type handle won't fit a no 12. The saw plate is in the way, that's why I don't care for the older style handles. Did your saw have the cutaway in the plate? It's a semicircular shaped deal. The old ones would just be clipped straight across.

[Kory Cassel]

Oh yeah, thanks Stewie. We've both read that. I think that Pete has commented that he disagrees with some of the Disstonian findings because the sample size was too small. Makes sense to me that the true value of the no 12 is in the way it was crafted, and not any special steel. Part of what I said in the first place, but I'm sure Pete will find something else wrong with me that makes him angry.

[Pete Taran]

Kory,

I want to make sure I got this right, so bear with me, because I think you are on to something here. You are saying if a saw isn't sharp, it won't cut very well, is that right?

If that is true, I agree 100% with your contention.

Pete

Just saying super magic steel won't make a saw perform well if its not sharp, so a given no 7 can easily outperform a no 12.