Back Saw Testing

[David Dalzell]

These are the results of ad hoc testing using my backsaws. I know it is not fair to directly compare performances of Tenon, Carcass, and Dovetail saws, but these are what I have. The Adrias and Grammercys are new and have not yet been used for an actual project. I have the Adria Tenon saws in both xcut and rip. I also have the Grammercy Carcass saws in both xcut and rip. I also used an old clunker Disston K-1 Tenon saw and a Veritas Dovetail saw. I have had the Disston and Veritas for some time and use both often. ( Note – the Disston I use for practicing my sharpening skills: still not very good).

This is a picture of the saws tested. Top to bottom Disston, Adria, Grammercy, and Veritas. Saws Tested.jpg
The tests used a piece of 5/4 cherry since I use cherry, and walnut, for most of the furniture pieces I make. I made two cuts, ten saw strokes each, with each saw. I marked lines at 1" intervals on the test wood.

For crosscut I compared: Adria Tenon, Grammercy Carcass, and Disston K-1 saws
This is the result of the ten stroke x cut test. X Cut Results.jpg
I was surprised by the Adria performance on the x cuts. It is a lot faster. All three saws tested felt about the same to start the cut. No downward pressure, just a very light, short, forward stroke to start the cut, and then go to it. The Adria is much heavier than the Grammercy or Disston. This must have some effect on the speed of cut. The ADRIA weighs 1lb 11 ½ oz, Grammercy 12 ¼ oz, Disston 1lb 1 ¾ oz. In other words the Adria weight is almost double that of the Grammercy carcass saw.

For rip cuts I compared the Adria Tenon, Grammercy Carcass and Veritas Dovetail saws.
This is the result of the ten stroke rip cut test. Rip Cut Results.JPG
I guess I was expecting more difference between the Adria and Grammercy results, but they came in very close for the ten saw strokes. The Veritas is about as I expected. It has more rake and thus is both slower cutting and easier (the easiest) to start. The Adria is hardest to start. It started fine once I used a higher approach angle for starting. i.e. more upward slanted at the start of the cut.

Others notes: All made smooth cuts. The Adria had the widest kerf. The Grammercy and Disston were somewhat thinner, and the Veritas Dovetail had the finest kerf. However there was little difference between the widest and narrowest kerfs. All felt very comfortable in my hand. The hang of the Adria, Grammercy, and Disston are almost the same. Here is a shot of the Adria and Grammercy, with the cutting edge of the blades parallel. You can see that the hang is almost identical.Hang Adria & Grammercy.jpg

On the other hand the Veriatas Dovetail saw has a very different hang. It is much less vertical than the others. Here is a shot of the hang difference between the Veritas and Grammercy.Hang Veritas & Grammercy.jpgIs this hange angle normal for dovetail saws or is this a feature of Veritas saws? I don’t know. All the saws feel comfortable to use.

I am quite pleased with my new Adria and Grammercy saws. They are going to see a lot of use. So now I really need to practice saw sharpening. Sooner or later all these saws are going to need to be resharpened.

[Jim Koepke]

Did I miss the tooth counts?

Most of the time my test saw cuts are made after sharpening a saw. A pencil line is used to see how it tracks. Sometimes just for fun the lines are drawn about 1/8" apart. Then after the cuts are made I will see if the saw can track between the kerfs. Doesn't prove anything, just kind of fun to see how thin what is left can get.

[Tom M King]

Given decent steel, it's all in the sharpening, and tooth geometry. The rest is just looks and feel.

[David Dalzell]

Yeah. I forgot to put in the tooth counts. The Disston is 11 PPI, Adria 11 PPI for both x cut and rip, the Grammercy is 14 PPI x cut and 12 PPI rip, the Veritas is 14 PPI.

[george wilson]

As mentioned,the weight of the Adria is a factor too. It has the widest blade,and a brass back. Brass is heavier than steel. This assumes that all were sharpened correctly,and for rip cut. The coarser teeth are a factor too.

[Winton Applegate]

I read the post but have not looked at the kerfs yet.
Ha, ha
I am thinking this is kind of like one of those activities people use to bring the Unconscious to the surface to indicate the true feelings of the participant.
Which saw do I REALLY like the most ?
Probably not but figured I would interject that.

Now I will look at the kerfs.

PS: I don't have a good example of what I mean but ouija boards and throwing the I Ching come to mind.
Still not exactly what I am thinking of but since I don't use that sort of thing I don't have a ready example.
Perhaps ink blots come to think of it.

[Winton Applegate]

a hah, here we go . . .
upon reading in the description of Ouija boards I came across the term I was looking for : Ideomotor effect.
Apparently you are dabbling in things that have the potential to get entirely out of hand quickly from which you may not be able to extricate your self without the help of an exorcist.

My advice is to cease and desist with your abhorrent experiments with divination, consider your self lucky to have escaped doom and destruction and to build a project with the normally harmless saws.

Do it
DO IT NOW !
before . . . it . . . is . . . too . . . late !

[Bruce Mack]

As an aside, when I was into photography and making my own black and white prints, I had the fortune (misfortune?) of living in NYC with access to the photo galleries of the Museum of Modern Art. There I saw prints unimaginably better than what I could produce. While I improved, the prints were never in the game.
With saws you don't really know good until you have used one made or sharpened by a master. My Bad Axe sash saw cuts and tracks like it was held by a wizard. On the other hand both Veritas saws (16 tpi small crosscut and 12 tpi rip carcass) needed resharpening by me to work well. I am certain they could be still better if sharpened by an expert.
When you pay a lot of money for a good saw, you see the more glitzy construction but feel the finesse of the sharpener.

[Judson Green]

a hah, here we go . . .
upon reading in the description of Ouija boards I came across the term I was looking for : Ideomotor effect.
Apparently you are dabbling in things that have the potential to get entirely out of hand quickly from which you may not be able to extricate your self without the help of an exorcist.

My advice is to cease and desist with your abhorrent experiments with divination, consider your self lucky to have escaped doom and destruction and to build a project with the normally harmless saws.

Do it
DO IT NOW !
before . . . it . . . is . . . too . . . late !

I was thinking the exact same thing about the Ouija board. I can't understand how this really tests anything.

[Winton Applegate]

First off I want to say I appreciate David Dalzell for posting this thread. I was just having fun with it. Keep posting. You did great. Doesn't mean I won't have something ridiculous to say about the next one.

how this tests things

Well if nothing else it tests my ability to come up with a silly comment
and
it tests you alls patience when you read my silly comment
But it was fun and interesting to see the saws and to see and hear how they cut even if it wasn't scientifically rigorous to the last micro Joule per Micron.

feel the finesse of the sharpener.

I think more people need to hear that and appreciate the cost of real tools; meaning $200 for a back saw is not "too" much or "I don't need a saw that good" "I am only learning".

An old article comes to mind (I think I read it on line) of one of the top makers of the period furniture makers . . . like so many he was teaching classes . . . his class was on the dovetail saw and how to use it.
He had every body buy or bring one of the cheapest saws as part of the admission to the class.
or maybe I am dramatizing but the point was and his point was . . .
he took one of these cheep saws, overhauled it/resharpened it (probably took most or all of the set out of it) and then . . .
showed how it could cut great dovetails and how the students could cut great dovetails with it.

Of course being a Tool Turkey myself I was appalled and still bought much better looking saws . . . and . . .
. . .
discovered I still had to sharpen the dambed things my self if I wanted them to cut right. Or at least good enough (as good as I could sharpen them).

So yah unless one knows how well a well sharpened saw can cut OR HOW TO SHAPREN LIKE A MASTER one is really at the mercy of an expert or cutting less than decent joints and thinking if I could just hold my tung right I could cut like Frank Klausz.

And then there are those that can cut like Frank Klausz with an unmodified poo poo saw. We call those craftspeople Gods. Able to manipulate time and space materializing and dematerializing matter at will . . .
I think there was an old Fine Woodworking article on how to do that . . . here . . . in my library . . .some where . . . I'll get back to you on that one.

David,
Thanks for posting, I learned some stuff and look forward to your next thread.
Winton

[David Dalzell]

Was "testing" the right word to use? I wasn't testing in the sense of trying to determine which saw was superior for what. I was "testing" purely for my own curousity and sense of satisfaction I get when I cut, shave, drill, etc. with hand tools. Here I was, four new saws; two each Adria and Grammercy. I had been working with a couple of nice dovetail saws and a junker Disston (that I sharpen myself). Suddenly I have a wealth of new, high quality backsaws at my disposal. What to do? Well I am between major projects right now, (designing the next one and not yet ready to cut wood) so let's see what I've got. I know why I bought them: Two tenon saws for larger work, two carcass saws for, well, carcass work. Did I make the right decision? Will I like all of them? Will they all be used? Answers: Yes, I think I made the right decision. Yes I like all of them. The sound and feel of them cutting through wood gives me joy, satisfaction, and a certain sense of calmness. They will all be used. Of course my dovetail saws see, and will continue to see, a lot of use. The Adria tenon saws will see a certain amount of use for the initial stages of a project. Cutting to length, tenons for larger parts, etc. The Grammercy carcass saws will probably see quite a bit more use for constructing stretchers, dividers, rails, stiles and all the sundry parts that go into a piece of furniture. So in sum: they will all be used, appreciated, and cared for. My poor old Disston will probably be used mostly for sharpening practice. Do I need them all? No, probably not. But I have long since fallen down that slippery, slippery slope, and thus, in a different sense, I do need them. I am unrepentant and do enjoy that slippery slope.