Advice on buying a new desktop laser engraver

[Scott Shepherd]

You've mentioned "Radience Optics" a couple of times. That's a marketing phrase for their product. You won't notice any difference in a photo engraved with "radience optics" and the competitors optics. If you plan on moving where you say, you might want to take another look at ULS. The ULS rep, Paul Castello is in Fredericksburg and he's one of the most knowledgeable guys on this coast. He's one of the handful of sales people out there that knows what he's talking about. I can't say that about the regional dealer for another brand. Paul has done more for me than any other sales rep on any piece of equipment we have. I'd consider that in your purchase. Also know one thing up front on all of them. The price you are given is normally the "asking" price. Laser prices are certainly negotiable.

[Doug Griffith]

then it will narrow my choices of lasers

I see it more as limiting the substrates you work with. Woods might be OK. Plastics not OK. At least as far as the smell goes. Noise will still be a challenge.

I've noticed that income from my laser is relative to the noise and stink it produces. I'm not making money if I'm not making noise and stink.

[Michael Conley]

Thanks, Scott. I have already received an initial quotation from Paul Costello because he is the ULS sales representative for Vienna. I am originally from Kentucky and the ULS rep there is located near my hometown and did a demo for my wife a few weeks ago. (We lease a home for our children in college about 30 minutes from his office.) I intend to follow up with Paul next week. He and his wife were very helpful and responded to my request for information and pricing extremely quickly.

As I understand it, Epilog's Radiance Optics feature is their version of Universal's HPDF Optics. Epilog claims that it reduces the beam from .005" to .0035". Universal claims a spot size reduction to .00125" but it is offered only as an expensive option. Before making a decision, I will ask each vendor to engrave the same photo on maple plaques from the same source. That will let me give me a common basis for comparison of both quality and speed.

You are probably right about the reduced spot size not making a difference but I will take a magnifying glass to the test pieces just in case.

[Michael Conley]

Doug,

The reason that I said that using a fume extractor will reduce my choices for a laser is that if I spend $2-3,000 on an extractor, I will scratch off the more expensive lasers from my list to pay for it. I will take a look at the home brew designs but I am basically a software guy as opposed to a hardware guy and an apartment is not well suited for construction projects.

[David Fairfield]

Yeah I have no idea what radiance optics is supposed to mean either, its a sales pitch, not an engineering term. Rastered details are much finer and thinner than vectored marks, finer than the .007" kerf for that lens, so maybe that's what they are playing up with the fancy name. I'm just very pleased with the engraving quality and since I often work with very small scale miniatures, that's important to me.

When I compared the samples I got in the mail from the various vendors, Epilog's looked best under magnification. Maybe that was just the care they put into the free samples, and maybe things have changed since then. Compare samples, also it would be good to get run times for them. Stuff can look a little sharper at lower speeds, sometimes its not practical to drop the speed... lotsa variables.

Dave

[Dan Hintz]

I certainly hope that you are wrong about operating from an apartment, Dan. The quietest Penn State models claim a 62 db noise level, and I plan to place a heavy rubber mat below the blower and then surround the machine with some noise absorbing panels if necessary.

I have the DC2000B from Penn State, the same 62dB noise level you mention... in fact, I just got it hooked up and turned on for the first time a few hours ago (needed 240V hookups installed for that and my bandsaw).

I was...surprised, shall we say, at how loud this thing was. Nearly as loud as my Harbor Freight red beast... not as high-pitched, more of an industrial whoosh, but still as loud. Trust me, you won't run this in an apartment without serious complaints, even on the balcony. Ever heard the carpet-cleaning vans? Yeah, loud. You need to find a location other than the apartment.

[Michael Conley]

I have the DC2000B from Penn State, the same 62dB noise level you mention... in fact, I just got it hooked up and turned on for the first time a few hours ago (needed 240V hookups installed for that and my bandsaw).

I was...surprised, shall we say, at how loud this thing was. Nearly as loud as my Harbor Freight red beast... not as high-pitched, more of an industrial whoosh, but still as loud. Trust me, you won't run this in an apartment without serious complaints, even on the balcony. Ever heard the carpet-cleaning vans? Yeah, loud. You need to find a location other than the apartment.

The DC2000B is listed at 65 dB. The models that I was considering are only 1 to 1-1/2 HP and are listed at 62 dB - still noisy but quite a bit less so than the 2 HP models.

The responses here have convinced me that I need to plan ahead for noise suppression and use a fume extractor try to keep everything indoors - but I am not ready to give up on the idea of operating in my current location.

[Dan Hintz]

The DC2000B is listed at 65 dB. The models that I was considering are only 1 to 1-1/2 HP and are listed at 62 dB - still noisy but quite a bit less so than the 2 HP models.

The responses here have convinced me that I need to plan ahead for noise suppression and use a fume extractor try to keep everything indoors - but I am not ready to give up on the idea of operating in my current location.

The Harbor Freight model is listed at 85dB... and it sounds practically the same as far as noise level compared to the DC2000B. Don't count on that 3dB difference actually equating to a 50% noise level reduction between the two PSI models. If you don't believe me, find someone local who can crank theirs up and see for yourself. You've been warned...

[Michael Conley]

The Harbor Freight model is listed at 85dB... and it sounds practically the same as far as noise level compared to the DC2000B. Don't count on that 3dB difference actually equating to a 50% noise level reduction between the two PSI models. If you don't believe me, find someone local who can crank theirs up and see for yourself. You've been warned...

Thanks to your first warning, I decided to take a different approach. I am considering a fume extractor partially enclosed with soundproofing material.

With my first laser, I made the mistake of getting a blower that was much, much larger than I needed, so I know how loud one can get. At that time, I lived in the country and my nearest neighbor lived a quarter mile away and he could hear my blower easily with from his yard. Whatever I decide to get, if it is 20 dB louder than the specs, then it will be returned. I will get that guarantee in writing before I buy anything.

[Robert Walters]

Hi Mike,

I bought and returned the Penn State DC3 and went with the Red HF + Router Speed Control.
I didn't find much noise difference and that the DC3 spikes around 24Amps at power on.
That may be an issue in an apartment circuit panel.

(Sidenote: PennState sell's your soul to ever woodworking and tool mailing list there is.
They did a typo on my order so that typo has been reflected on dozens of catalogs that I've suddenly started receiving.)

If you happen to have a dedicated room in your apartment, you could place the blower in a closet (with no common walls with your neighbors) as well as sound proofing, and vent outdoors through some activated carbon, that should take care of the noise and fume issues.

A heavy duty trash can with activated carbon and some 4" pipe could do what you need with minimal construction skills.

You mention wanting to do wood and acrylic 'and without air assist'...
Those are two things that can catch on fire easily.

Yes, you said you never had an issue. Well, it only has to happen once, See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP!-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale

In a multi-unit building, you could be held liable for loss of life and property if it was the cause of a fire.
Not to mention all the people that could be displaced without a home.

Noise and fumes is just an annoyance, a fire is another matter all together.

I wouldn't go with less than an extinguisher UL rated at 20A:120BC ($120+ USD).

$0.02

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I think you need to sit down and create a buisness plan. This sounds like a disaster out of the gate. Operating out of an appartment is a disaster waiting to happen. Sooooo many things to go wrong there. Lest just list a few.

Fire
Noise
Fumes
Power issures

Keep in mind that if you vector cut you will need a compressor and those things vibrate and that noise will be transfered throught the walls and floors. I think you will have more problems with the fumes than you will with the noise. Venting to the out side in an apparment is not going to work. The fumes will get you busted and shutdown, Probably withing a month.

I also live in northern Virgina. I think you are going to be hard pressed to pay for your investment living anywhere much less out of an appartment. If you allready had a buisness and the laser is used to compliment it then maybe. One other thing fume extractors need frequent replacement of filters to remain effective. You have to compute that into the cost as well.

If you study your lease carfully there is probably a clause about operating a buisness or operating dangourous equipment. A laser is a device that can burn your house to the ground if it is not watched every second it is cutting. If I were living in your apartment complex and found out you were operating a laser. A simple phone call to the fire department would have you shut down in less than 24 hours.

[Mike Null]

I'm afraid I agree with that. I can't imagine that your lease doesn't prohibit such activities.

[Michael Conley]

Hi Mike,

I bought and returned the Penn State DC3 and went with the Red HF + Router Speed Control.
I didn't find much noise difference and that the DC3 spikes around 24Amps at power on.
That may be an issue in an apartment circuit panel.

(Sidenote: PennState sell's your soul to ever woodworking and tool mailing list there is.
They did a typo on my order so that typo has been reflected on dozens of catalogs that I've suddenly started receiving.)

If you happen to have a dedicated room in your apartment, you could place the blower in a closet (with no common walls with your neighbors) as well as sound proofing, and vent outdoors through some activated carbon, that should take care of the noise and fume issues.

A heavy duty trash can with activated carbon and some 4" pipe could do what you need with minimal construction skills.

You mention wanting to do wood and acrylic 'and without air assist'...
Those are two things that can catch on fire easily.

Yes, you said you never had an issue. Well, it only has to happen once, See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?125121-For-Sale-CHEAP!-Epilog-Legend-36-EXT

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157053-Fire-A-Cautionary-Tale

In a multi-unit building, you could be held liable for loss of life and property if it was the cause of a fire.
Not to mention all the people that could be displaced without a home.

Noise and fumes is just an annoyance, a fire is another matter all together.

I wouldn't go with less than an extinguisher UL rated at 20A:120BC ($120+ USD).

$0.02

Thank you for the excellent advice. To be clear, I have no intention of operating without air assist this time around. We did not have air assist on the Epilog Radius engraver that we operated about 10 years ago and had no problem.

I have read the horror stories on this forum and realize that we were probably just lucky. This time, I will place a fire extinguisher and a backup fire extinguisher near the machine and the air assist will be running whenever the laser is running.

[Larry Bratton]

I'm afraid I agree with that. I can't imagine that your lease doesn't prohibit such activities.

As I said in my original reply to this, and I whole heartedly agree with you mike. It just isn't worth the risk either. There would be absolutely no way to hold the complex harmless and if there was lives lost you could be in a heap of trouble. Good luck to you if you decide to pursue it.

[Steve Clarkson]

I'll jump on the band wagon..........this is a disaster waiting to happen.

IMHO.....you'll be out of business and likely out on the street (or atleast not living in you current apartment complex) in less than a year.

You can't run a profitable business with only a laser engraver.....especially out of an apartment.....especially supporting two employees........especially by engraving photos.

Just trying to save you $10 or $20 grand before you make a huge mistake..........