Opinion requested: Cutting Dovetails on a Pattern Makers vise, and vs. a Twin-Screw?

[Jim Neeley]

Has anyonew here tried this? How well does it work? Are there problems rotating the vice 90* to get longer vise grab? When cutting HB DT's, do you pivot the vise to make the cut level? I'm trying to figure out where to start... and if I should try a PM front vise or a LV/Veritas twin-screw end vise first.

Jim

[Bruce Page]

Jim, are you over complicating things? I don’t see why one vise is noticeably superior to another as long as you have a solid hold of the work piece. These HB’s were cut using a standard 10” Jorgensen bench vise.

[Jim Neeley]

Probably so, Bruce..

[Bruce Page]

How's the weather in Anchorage? I spent many a night at the Millennium Hotel on Spenard road. Even saw the occasional moose in the parking lot.

[Jim Neeley]

It's right at 32*F at 5:30pm, Bruce.. The snow has been subliming for the last few weeks and the main streets are clear and dry. The heat is coming back to the sun so the last week or so is starting to melt where clear (or paved) areas meet the snow. Large parking lots are typically about 40% clear of snow... and we are rapidly gaining sunlight!

From December's sunrise at 10am and sunset at 3:30 we're now approaching 12 hours and are moving back towards our 22.5 hrs of possible sunlight. It's about time to come out of hibernation and get active again! <g>

I'm looking forward to getting a real WB built for my 2-car shop so I'll be able to make firewood late by sunlight!!

There have been a lot of moose in town lately. A silly 20-yo woman got kicked 3X by one this week in downtown Anchorage. It was peacefully eating trees in our downtown square and she got the *brilliant* idea of trying to pet it.

She wasn't badly hurt (no hospital) but I swear.. some people seem to be seeking the Darwin awards!!

Let's see.. a bull moose is a wild animal.. 6' to 7' high at the shoulder.. weighing 850 - 1500 lbs, with an attitude. I wonder what happens when you invade their personal space....

I've attached a PDF of a young bull walking down Northern Lights Blvd (4 lane one-way) you might enjoy!

[gary Zimmel]

Sweet half blind Bruce. And it looks like in white oak. Murphy's rule is at least one scribe line will be right on that grain. Makes it hard on these old eyes.

Jim if you are starting from scratch get a vise that will allow you to adjust the wood the same height off the bench. No need to adjust the wood to saw straight up and down. As a matter of fact it would be harder to saw that way IMHO.
Level piece of wood the same height every time will help you with consistency when sawing.

[Jim Neeley]

Boy, you're right there, Gary.. Sweet, Bruce!

Level, same height... just like Rob's videos said.. I should have remembered, Gary.. Thanks!!

[Bruce Page]

Thanks Gary, coming from you I consider that a high compliment!

[Jon van der Linden]

Some people prefer to saw at a height that is higher than their benchtop, for this a patternaker's vise is ideal because by rotating it you are fixing the work at a higher point. As Bruce said, you can do fine work without the ultimate in convenience. That said, the patternmaker's vise only works well on narrower pieces when rotated - on wider pieces there may be some flex. When looking for the ultimate, it's always a question of "ultimate for what?"

[Adam Cherubini]

Jim, are you over complicating things? I don’t see why one vise is noticeably superior to another as long as you have a solid hold of the work piece. These HB’s were cut using a standard 10” Jorgensen bench vise.

If you are making jewelry boxes or the occasional drawer, then it MAY be true that any vise will do. The average Jorg vise often doesn't have the ability to pass a long board between the guide rails. These vises don't handle clamping off center well. (no vises do really).

The advantage of a patternmaker's vise is that you can turn it sides ways and hold a long board. So for the average drawer front or side, I would think this would be an improvement over record style or the european style wood jaw vises with guide rails.

A twin screw, especially with the screws 2' apart can hold a drawer easily, but can also hold a wide carcass side at any height wonderfully firmly. Guys can work around not having this capability by using their noodle. You can hold one edge, and block up the other or use clamps. Before I built my first twin screw this is what I did. And that works, but it's not great and it's not convenient.

Sometimes I had wide lumber that was a tiny bit cupped. I found I could clamp out the cup with a good set of dts. The trick is restraining the board flat while you mark. The big twin screw helps with that too.

In my opinion, having used every sort of vise except a patternmaker's, a twin screw, properly design and built is the best for cabinetwork. In my opinion the wood jawed guide rail vises are the worst. Next worst is the record/jorgensen models.

Adam

[Jim Matthews]

I clamp another piece of solid wood in the vise, to raise the dovetailing to eye level.

This implies another clamp is used to hold the workpiece in place.

FYI - My patternmaker's vise tends to work loose when cutting toward the mechanism. My cheapo Wilton never moves.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Jim,

I have both an Emmert K-1 and a wooden twin screw vise with 24.5" between screws on my bench. Though I do use both for dovetailing, I normally use the twin screw because ti can grip a broader range of boards and it allows me to sometime sit while cutting. Both work however so I'd use whatever you have.

[David Keller NC]

Jim - There is a cost consideration here; You can do very good dovetail work with a Jorgensen quick-release vise, but that is about the cheapest option I'd recommend. I don't recommend the Record type vises - Jorgensens use an interrupted screw cam-action quick-release mechanism that is very robust; the records and recod clones use a less-than-robust lever mechanism that, in my experience, tends to wear to the point of releasing your work when you don't want it released.

I also have a Emmert K-1, and it is indeed a wonderful vise. But - they are very expensive on the secondary market with all of the pieces and no breaks or welds (typically about $650 when shipping is factored in - they're very heavy). The discontinued Lee-Valley "Tucker" patternmaker's vise is, by all accounts, a top-notch repro, but they're also very expensive. The currently-manufactured taiwanese clones are, in my opinion, not worth having. The machining tolerances just aren't there, and I've a couple of friends that bought one of these to save some dough, and then sold them and bought Emmerts or Yost (a pre-war competitor to Emmert that had a reputation for high quality).

Given that you can get a Lee-Valley or Lee Nielsen twin-screw for considerably less than a patternmaker's vise, I doubt you will miss the extra capability of the Emmert unless you're a carver.