Todays USA today TS article

[Bryan Wellman]

But, as long as I work alone, my gold Powermatic stands head and shoulders above a black SawStop.

You got something against black saws?? NOW we're opening up a can of worms!! LOL

[John M. Johnson]

I wish this was not true, but alas I fear that it is. This (David Marks) is where I started from and I have the greatest respect for splitter, paws and guards. I have this self imposed policy of, "If you cannot do it on an Euro saw, don't do it."

The worst part for me is that 1/2 of me want to give into the fear factor and trade in my PM66.

And on the topic of digits lost to table saws, how many new saw users learn from the DIY channel, where I have yet to see them use a guard on a table saw even when they are ripping, which is the usual use of the saw on the home improvement shows. They even have newbies using a table saw without a guard, when they already have demonstrated that they don't even know how to use a drill. Maybe they ought to start there, policing themselves knowing that they are really teaching America how to tackle a kitchen or bath remodel. I see plenty of safety glasses, dust masks and the like, but no saw guard, go figure. And the same can be said for the woodworking teachers like David Marks. They often show warnings, but never show a guard on the saw, even when they are doing a simple rip operation that really doesn't need the visual clarity of not having a fence. The message is that if you are a real saw user, you don't need no stinking blade guard. Personally, I use mine 90% of the time, and half of the reason is just so I have a splitter to reduce the dreaded kickback.

[Rich Engelhardt]

As a smoker (for the next 11 days anyhow) and a gun owner, all I have to say is:

"Welcome to my world"...

It's one where people that have no clue, no experience with and no desire to listen to facts or reason will make the rules you will be forced to abide by.


P.S. - That sound you hear is your ox being gored....

Sorry - don't mean to seem so jaded about it, but, it's not like his is the first time some collection of people trying to justify their paychecks have made some horrible decisions.


Next on their agenda will be the blitz that informs us all that:
"It's for your own safety"...

[Dan Hintz]

Are these all new replies in this thread, or is this the old thread pulled from the editing pile? I ask because all of the replies are showing from 1 day ago, but the text appears very familiar...

[John Coloccia]

I, for one, hope this means we'll see more woodworking articles in USA Today.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Dan,
The thread itself just started. The article in USA is recent (yesterday?).
The whole "topic" itself - a mandated safety - has moved beyond the lawsuit and is now in the realm of the CPSC and other **consumer watchdogs**...

[Brian Vaughn]

Like many of the others have said, I admire the man for coming up with the Sawstop technology, however I think he's scum for trying to make it mandated. In cases like this, where it is for the "public good" (Isn't that what he's arguing?) then any patents should become null and void, since it's obviously much more important to protect the public than to make money.

In all seriousness, yes, I would lie to have a sawstop, but I'd also like to have a PM66, or something better than my dinky little delta, but that's what I could afford at the time, and is pretty well the maximum I can fit in my shop right now. It's not ideal, but I'm always safe with it, never had so much as a nick from a table saw, power saw, or router (I hurt myself far more often with kitchen implements than anything) and I think anyone else can be just as safe, if they have the proper respect for their tools.

Personally, I'm just tired of having the government try to tell us how to live, and trying to protect us at every turn. If I want to drive around without a seatbelt, I should be able to. I know the consequences that could happen, but I'm an adult and I get to make that choice. The same goes for smoking, putting salt on your food, or anything else that only affects you, and not others. It's when it crosses the line over to hurting someone else (Like drinking and driving) that they should be able to have some influence. <end rant>

If people want the technology, it's available for purchase. And Mr. Sawstop is more than welcome to make a retrofit kit for all the tablesaws out there. Hey, it could be a new income source for him. But mandating it for all manufaturers is a money grab, pure and simple.

[Curt Harms]

It's going to be a long time before any mandatory regulations are passed, implemented, and enforced. It's an interesting discussion for folks who like to think about public safety and policy, but most of us probably won't be affected by this drastically during our lifetimes. The first places that would actually see/feel the effects would be schools and production environments (where the saws are purchased and provided by employers or other large entities).

Enjoy your saw and keep making sawdust, regardless of which saw you have.

It seems like that would be the most receptive market, Inexperienced or semiskilled users. I'll bet insurance carriers view this technology as cheap at twice the price.

[Rod Sheridan]

This isn't a country where we care a lot about safety frankly. Not for its own sake anyway. Follow the money and you get the real story. I have a shop full of machines capable of eating a finger, hand, every thing below the wrist. Nobody is in a big hurry it seems to add flesh sensing technology to any of these. Ever look at the statistics on skill saw injuries? Can you imagine a $750 skill saw that weights 68# but has flesh sensing technology? I'd say that requiring each TS purchaser take a basic safety course and pass a safety test would probably eliminate better than 50% of the accidents right off the bat without installing any brakes. Prohibiting the sale of these rinky dink job site and low end contractor models would probably drop another 25%, because there is some scary stuff spinning a blade for sale out there.

Instead of designing brakes to keep your bologna from getting scars, maybe they could push for a real innovation that keeps the users hands far from danger but still allows the function we require from a "variety saw". I can imagine a small sliding saw with an integral power feeder (not an option but built in like a straight line rip saw), a tall fence that keeps your hand from being close to the blade during cuts where the blade is close to the fence, good dust collection (because who wants to die early of lung cancer with a perfectly good set of fingers?). Oh, and it has to cost less than $400 so they can sell it at Wallmart. Not likely to happen. An American cabinet saw is such a crude instrument relative to a euro slider on most levels including safety, but nobody is beating the drum to require those become the norm? And they have been around much longer. Go figure?

The thing that drives the safety discussion in Europe is labor. If you are going to PAY somebody to do work, then the tools you provide them to do that work had better be safe. So you get sliders, breaking motors, serious shaper fences, built in stock feeders, riving knives, etc. Here? Seems the lawyers are driving this discussion, not organized labor. So you get machines that allow you to do stupid things but minimize the injury when you do rather than machines that minimize the risk to begin with. Grandpa used to say keep your hands out of the blade and you wont get cut. Maybe he was on to something? Nothing wrong with the brake mind you, but its hardly the only or IMO the best way to deal with the problem.

Excellent post Peter, I'm in agreement except for the " in this country" part.

Being Canadian I see this attitude here also, many people view safety as an inconvenience as opposed to the primary consideration.

Many accidents are the result of poor work practices and training such as using the wrong machine for the task, removing guards and protective devices, and incorrect operating procedures.

In North America we view the table saw as a do all machine, and it can do a lot of operations, however the only operation it's capable of doing safely as supplied by the manufacturer is making a through cut. The design of the saw guard prevents you from using it for non through cuts, unless you spend significant amounts of money to refit an overarm guard.

Hands up anyone who has removed a guard to make a dado, groove or rebate? I'm guessing everyone reading this post now has a hand in the air, hopefully with all original digits intact.

That's the difference between Europe and North America, my FIL who is an English trained cabinet maker was incredulous when he saw a co-worker in Canada remove the table saw guard to make rebates. He had been taught that the spindle molder is the correct machine for the task as it has the guards and safety features to do that operation safely.

Obviously using an overarm guard would also be safe, removing the guard isn't safe.

The TV shows, the magazines such as Fine Woodworking that show peple operating saws without guards, and any other persons who provide advice to remove guards to allow machines to do tasks that aren't safe, well they're just irresponsible and unprofessional.

I think that's the problem, we view wood working as something anyone can do, which is true, however to do it properly and safely requires training, and understanding of the possible risks.

That's what missing in North America for many wood workers, proper training.

My wife made a comment about this a couple of years ago that really struck home. I was looking at Felder products and had received a DVD from Felder where an office desk was constructed using a CF741 combination machine. Diann commented on how many times Felder stressed safety and using the correct guards, and their wood worker changed guard types for different operations, in contrast to Norm et al, who show us that no guards are the correct choice.

The SS technology is the only real advance in table saw technology that I can think of in decades. Euro saws had become much safer decades ago through design, it would be hard to tell a 1940 cabinet saw from a 2011 saw based upon safety improvements.

As my dad often said "If you're not smart enough to solve your own problems, someone else will". That's the issue with safety, if we as a group can't solve our problem
legislation will.

Regards, Rod.

[Neil Brooks]

The same goes for smoking, putting salt on your food, or anything else that only affects you, and not others. It's when it crosses the line over to hurting someone else (Like drinking and driving) that they should be able to have some influence. <end rant>

I'm not sure that people generally take the time to understand that there are "ripples in the pond" to nearly ANY of these actions that they describe as "only affecting [me]."

Seat belts, helmets, and smoking are classic examples.

Who pays your hospital bills ?

Got insurance ? What number do the actuaries factor in for the % of the population who doesn't wear seat belts, does smoke, and won't wear a helmet, and how much do MY rates go up, as a result ?

I've got my issues with Goss's approach to "marketing" his technology, but I have additional issues with the premise that "X" is only affecting me. It stifles debate, and colors some arguments that desperately need to be had, in this (and other) country.

It rarely is.

[Rob Sack]

I wonder how many hands and fingers the sawstop guy has wished upon to get his patent on every saw in the US.

Unbelievable. What makes anybody think Gass sat around and wished for a magnitude of injuries? He came up with a revolutionary idea. He tried to sell it to machinery manufacturers and they "blew him off." So he started his own company utilizing this revolutionary safety feature. He produced a table saw that by many accounts, is a quality piece of equipment, at a price that is not that much more than the competition. And now he is the boogeyman. Starting a machinery manufacturing company cannot be cheap. The start-up costs have to be enormous, not to mention the research and development costs. These costs have to be factored into the price of the machinery. Listen, this is still a "free county." If you want to roll the dice with your hands and fingers, knock yourselves out. But having been a professional woodworker for over 30 years, I deeply respect my equipment and I consider myself to be usually cautious. But there have been lapses, and although I still have all my fingers, there have been collisions with "moving metal objects" and guess what, they won every time. Frankly, I wish all my tools had some form of this new technology, but I will settle for a Sawstop table saw.

[David Hostetler]

In what way is he "unscupulous" ?

He is using the courts and government regulators to boost his personal revenues instead of competing in an open marketplace.

[Caleb Larru]

Unbelievable. What makes anybody think Gass sat around and wished for a magnitude of injuries? He came up with a revolutionary idea. He tried to sell it to machinery manufacturers and they "blew him off." So he started his own company utilizing this revolutionary safety feature. He produced a table saw that by many accounts, is a quality piece of equipment, at a price that is not that much more than the competition. And now he is the boogeyman. Starting a machinery manufacturing company cannot be cheap. The start-up costs have to be enormous, not to mention the research and development costs. These costs have to be factored into the price of the machinery. Listen, this is still a "free county." If you want to roll the dice with your hands and fingers, knock yourselves out. But having been a professional woodworker for over 30 years, I deeply respect my equipment and I consider myself to be usually cautious. But there have been lapses, and although I still have all my fingers, there have been collisions with "moving metal objects" and guess what, they won every time. Frankly, I wish all my tools had some form of this new technology, but I will settle for a Sawstop table saw.

Again, what is the end game? Where does this end? Mercedes came up with some great technology in their vehicles called "Smart Stop" that allows for those lapses of judgment that you refer to. Why doesn't Mercedes petition the NHTSA to have their technology put on every vehicle? Because after all, we aren't talking about just fingers here, this is lives. On the flip side of that, if I go out and buy a Ford pickup, drive unsafe, run a red light and smash into someone, should I be able to sue Ford because they don't have this technology in their vehicles? Why was it any different for the guy that sued Ryobi for using a table saw in an unsafe manner?

Funny you mention this being a "free country", because it won't be if Gass has his way, at least not in the table saw world. My problem is not with the technology but with the idea that the whole premise of responsibility has shifted from a guy who operated the saw in an unsafe condition, to the maker of the saw. Somewhere along the way this country shifted from taking responsibility for their actions to putting the blame on someone else for not babysitting them.

[David Weaver]

Rob - how much did Gass try to sell it for. What was he looking for out of each machine? I'm sure he wasn't running around offering units at 10% over his cost out of the goodness of his heart.

I'm totally convinced you can't get ahead of the mechanism on a sawstop and hurt yourself.

I'm also 100% totally convinced I will never own one, i have zero interest in gass ever getting a nickel of my money. I'd rather spend $6 on an aluminum push stick, which until I sold my TS, worked extremely well. I understand the place for the finger-saving technology (if i had a business or a school, I would suck it up and get over my bias and get the saw so *other* people couldn't get their fingers in it). My shop isn't that place for any tools that are pushed by anyone who wants to use the government to make their market for them.

[Tom Cornish]

We had a SS in my last shop and it was nice machine. Went off once due to cutting a piece of styrofoam that had a thin metal layer nobody noticed. From having used one repeatedly, I would replace my own TS if I could afford it. Yes, the blade is toast and I believe the cost to replace all the parts, plus the CO2 catridge is more $69.

There's no CO2 cartridge - it's spring driven. The saw, other than the brake is undamaged and is designed to withstand being "fired". The blade may or may not be toast.

Is the detection perfect? No. Is it a lot better than nothing? Yes!