Sublimating ceramic tile... face up? or face down?

[Amy Shelton]

We went to a dye sub seminar by JDS Industries, where they say to sublimate with the tile face up, image face down. That decreases the time in the heat press.

Other companies' instructions say to use the Nomex felt pad on the bottom, scrap paper, put the image face up, tile face down, scrap paper, and heat 400F for 8 mins.

We've been doing them with the tile face down, taking 8 minutes, and it's working well for us. But when we need to do a lot at once, it would be nice to do them faster.

Any recommendations? Are both ways ok?

And if you have the tile face up, what order do you assemble everything?

Nomex, then scrap, then tile face up, image face down, scrap paper, then nothing but hard heat press platen on top? That's why I hesitate. I think it needs something soft on the face side of the tile.

[Mike Null]

Amy

Never did tile but I did mugs and there I used the transfer on the mug with just a piece of plain paper to eliminate scorching. I would certainly try a couple using the just the scrap paper. The one caveat is whether the tile is flat so that it will be in full contact with the transfer. Time is money.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think face up is wrong. In order for the sublimation process to happen, the material needs to be at 400 degrees. You can get a tile to 400 degrees without it taking some time. If you put 400 degrees on the transfer image, then wait for the material to get up to temp, I think you'll have poorer results. However, if by the time the paper reaches 400, the entire tile is at 400, I think you're in good shape.

I've never seen anyone or heard of anyone doing the tiles face up. I'm always willing to learn something new, but I think the people that do this for a living that I know of, all do it paper down, tile upside down, and I'll take their word on it until someone proves to me the opposite is better.

[Dan Hintz]

I think face up is wrong. In order for the sublimation process to happen, the material needs to be at 400 degrees. You can get a tile to 400 degrees without it taking some time. If you put 400 degrees on the transfer image, then wait for the material to get up to temp, I think you'll have poorer results. However, if by the time the paper reaches 400, the entire tile is at 400, I think you're in good shape.

I don't do sublimation, but I would agree with this without thinking twice. Forcing hot melted toner onto a cool surface is asking for a lack of repeatability.

[Mike Null]

Dan

This is ink not toner. (dye sublimation is ink; laser sublimation is toner and laser sublimation is usually done on metal) The paper must be placed on a cold substrate in order to position it and tape it in place. The tile or other substrate is then heated to 400 degrees by a press which is already at that temperature. To repeat, if the tile is flat then face up should work just fine and save time; if it is rounded on the edges then a pad would be necessary to force the paper into contact.

[Scott Shepherd]

if the tile is flat then face up should work just fine and save time;

If it worked just fine and saved time, the industry standard method would be to do it that way. Conde has 100's of videos on their site, showing how to dye sub everything that moves or doesn't move, and they say to to it with the paper down, the tile face down, on a pad. Those guys have done more dye sub work than anyone I've ever met, so I'll take their word on the method.

[Mike Null]

Steve

Way back I suggested a trial. I still think that's appropriate but I agree with you about Conde's experience.

This raises another point. If you've done sublimation you're aware of mug wraps which negate the need for a press. I wonder why there aren't tile wraps which would be even easier to make and use. These wraps (with the object in them) are placed in an oven for a specified time period at 400 degrees.

[Scott Shepherd]

Good question Mike, I make templates for a company that does high volume dye sub and they do it the same way we all do. I suspect there is a lot of room for improvement in the dye sub world, but no one's taking it on actively.

[Scott Challoner]

I really don't know much more than the basics about sublimation (I'm just getting into CLTT thanks to Mike) but at high volumes, could you reduce the pressing time by preheating the tiles?

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes. Only issue is trying to handle a 400 degree tile and get a piece of paper with an image on it stuck to it in the right place. Since it's 400 degrees, as soon as the paper touches it, it's going to try and start the sublimation process.

[Dan Hintz]

What about preheating to 200? Not enough to start the process, but it gets you closer to the start...

[Mike Null]

Dan

that may work but is still iffy because 200 is a temperature at which you can get a burn; you may also start the transfer process at that temp--not sure. The paper must be accurately placed and may have to be taped to ensure good registration.

I had to heat cold mugs in the press for about 2 1/2 minutes to get a good transfer. I believe the mugs are less dense than tile thus maybe a little faster heating.

If you're not familiar with laser sub. the sub. toner is still migrated into the substrate by temp, time and pressure rather than being a surface transfer. Sometimes there is toner residue left on the metal and this is cleaned with pure orange cleaner. I do quite a lot of this and it is nearly foolproof compared to dye sub.

Scott

I think you'll find cltt to be profitable and will increase the variety of items you can offer. I've been using it for more than ten years now.

[Dan Hintz]

I'm just throwing a number out there... make it 150 instead of 200. The point being any pre-heating you do (within reason) would only help to speed up the process. If you're doing 10 mugs, probably not so much... doing 100, or 1,000? Even a 30 second reduction in time per cup would be significant.

[Gary Hair]

And if you have the tile face up, what order do you assemble everything?

Nomex, then scrap, then tile face up, image face down, scrap paper, then nothing but hard heat press platen on top? That's why I hesitate. I think it needs something soft on the face side of the tile.

The problem with face up is that you won't get the paper to conform to the curved edges of the tiles. The reason for nomex on the bottom is so that you can press the tile into the paper/nomex and the nomex forces the paper against the tile. Unless you can find a material that transfers the heat and conforms to the tile, you are going to have to do them face down. One benefit to doing them face down is that you can ensure alignment much easier and you don't need tape to hold the tile in place. I put the transfer paper in the press and then place the tile on top - perfectly aligned - or as perfect as I can get it anyway.

There are a lot of reasons to like JDS but they are very new in sublimation and I would stick with advice from folks who have been doing it for a long time, like Johnson Plastics (Kevin Lumberg). Someone mentioned Conde but I had several bad experiences with them and wouldn't give them a penny of my money if they were the only resource - I'd find another profession if that were the case.

Gary

[Scott Shepherd]

Wow Gary, that's a strong statement there Sorry you had a bad experience with them. I've had nothing but great experiences with them. I've posted issues I was having on another forum at night or the weekend and my phone will ring, it being the president of the company, trying to help me through my issue. That's the level of service I have had with them.

I do know what you mean though. We all have a series of events that happen with various vendors and once they are set into motion, it leaves a bad taste in our mouths.

I've seen a fair amount of bad or wrong information out there on dye sub, and I'm still new with it myself. The one that always gets me is how many people complain about the ink cost. I always wonder why they do complain so much. If you are worried about ink costs, either you don't have enough work or you're not charging enough