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Thread: Grizzly Dust Collectors - which one?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    Grizzly Dust Collectors - which one?

    I'm looking to set up a ducted collection system (not rolling from tool to tool) in my 16x24 shop. I'm comparing a couple single stage collectors to which I will add a Thein-style separator and 6"ducting.

    http://www.grizzly.com/products/2HP-...llector/G0548Z
    2hp, 1700 CFM, Max. Static Pressure 10in, 1 micron canister

    vs.

    http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-HP...peller/G1030Z2
    3hp, 2300 CFM, Max. Static Pressure 16.7, 2.5 micron bags

    Looking deeper into the specs, though, it's the exact same impeller rotating at the exact same speed - 12 3/4 @3450 rpm. Is the CFM and SP improvement simply because of the 7" vs. 6" inlet and/or less SP loss from 2.5 micron dual bags vs. the canister?

    Keep in mind that these machines essentially the same price (separated by $20) and I can vent the blower outside. I'd like to save the space by getting the single-bag canister version but I wonder if the 3hp motor is the better way to go if I plan to make some modifications.

    Looking at the machine setup, it appears I could take either motor and eliminate the rigid pipe between the motor and the collection bag, rotating the motor 90-degrees and pointing the intake straight down. I'd raise the entire assembly up and put the separator underneath, running duct out of the separator's side inlet and to the machines - no 90-degree up angle to the ceiling.

    My questions are these:

    Is the 3hp, dual-bag setup overkill? I don't want to take up too much valuable real-estate in the shop so I would likely try to use a single collection bag, connecting the blower directly to that bag and venting outside. If I do that, I'm essentially creating the exact same setup as the 2hp version, just using a larger motor.

    Are there downsides to using this large a motor with less than half the SP loss (one bag vs. two, vent outside vs. 2.5 micron bags)? Should I be worried about sucking the collection bag shut or simply blowing *everything* outside?

    If I get the 2hp canister, should I expect decent dust collection (not just chip collection, which I assume will be acceptable) with the stock setup on 6" pipe runs of less than 20-25 feet with 3-4 90 degree turns?

    If I vent outside, what reasonable increase can I expect in my max. static pressure? Enough to offset the Thein separator?

    Has anyone tried to move one of these blowers up to the collection baffle (removing the rigid duct that connects them)? Will it fit and can I rotate it 90-degrees to point the intake downward? That makes a straight, rigid connection to the separator which seems like the most efficient setup possible. This is the only way I could justify the 3hp unit - it's simply too large to use in its stock configuration.

    I've asked Grizzly most of these questions and all they'll tell me is that they can't recommend altering their stock setup - so they're no help.

    I know this has been long-winded but I would really appreciate some specific dust-collection advice regarding these collectors. My budget simply doesn't allow for a cyclone so I want to make sure I don't get an undersized setup to start out and then have to upgrade in 6 months.

    Thanks in advance,
    Steve

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    I'll let some motor guys answer, but my guess is that the difference is more than inlets size and filter type...it doesn't take either motor's hp to just spin the impeller...the difference is what power it can generate to pull the air. All things being equal you will see a greater loss in real life with the 2HP.

    I too am looking at these machines...but will probably go with the 3hp for the reasons you suggest. Oddly, I have been looking at how I can mod this and rotating the motor 90 to accommodate a Thien, or reversing the Y outlet to go up and mount the motor higher.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Bregar View Post
    Oddly, I have been looking at how I can mod this and rotating the motor 90 to accommodate a Thien, or reversing the Y outlet to go up and mount the motor higher.
    You can't get that picture out of your mind, huh ?

    And I can't blame you. I just love that look -- horizontally-mounted motor, directly atop a Thien-type baffle, directly atop the garbage can.

    Nothing but upside

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brooks View Post
    You can't get that picture out of your mind, huh ?

    And I can't blame you. I just love that look -- horizontally-mounted motor, directly atop a Thien-type baffle, directly atop the garbage can.

    Nothing but upside
    The challenge I see is the output side. Now I want to exhaust outside for most of the year, but my shop is in northern WI, so in winter will run it though the filter. The 3HP unit has the Y output. If you rotate the motor 90 one branch of the wye would point to the wall for outside exhaust, the other into the room for connection to the filter...if the connection to the filter can also be rotated 90...it looks square but need to call grizzly I guess. I would fab some blast gates to go out or in depending on season.

  5. #5
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    I like the idea of variable venting inside/outside, but being in NC, I could stand to do everything outside. I like the canister upgrade I have with the 2hp version - in case the venting outside is unfeasible for whatever reason. The blast gates on the Y offers an option I hadn't considered, however, and I could upgrade to a canister should I desire it down the road (and save money on a more powerful system if I don't).

    Seems like the 3hp is the best way to go. I'm just afraid of assuming I can turn the motor 90 degrees, put it on top of the Thein baffle and vent outside, only to find that someway, somehow that configuration won't work and I now have this 2-bag behemoth for which I need to find shop space...

    Anyone have pics or recommendations/examples of these units vented outside? Seems simple enough, but every time I say that, I end up cursing some minute detail I overlooked.

    Steve

  6. #6
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    Ive owned the G1030Z2 for three months or so (using it stock, as is, with no modifications yet)...
    If anyone want some detailed pics, just explane what you would like a picture of and ill snap you some shots.

    The motor and impeller are heavy. I would say they are about 125-140 pounds of the shipping weight.
    Obviously the bags don't weigh much; the base, wheels and exhaust shoot might weigh a total of 20-30 pounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Bregar View Post
    ...it looks square but need to call grizzly I guess....
    All three flangs are rectanulare, if you want i can measure them for you, im pretty sure all three are the same size.


    Once i get some time and finish off "my shop" (basement shop), i too plan on mounting it vertically on top of a homemade "cyclone"/separator but i can not vent outside so it will then go to a filter and mini-bin.



    _

  7. #7
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    Joe:

    That would be great! First how do you like the DC? I know you have had it a short time but impressions?

    As far as measurements: A) Height from bottom of motor mount to center of inlet. B) Are flanges square? C) Height from bottom of motor mount to bottom of flange.

    I'm noodling a few ideas regarding transverse mounting the motor on top of the thien pre-seperator (that's why square flanges are important, they would be connected after rotating 90 degrees). But I think the motor will have to be mounted to something because as you stated it's heavy. I kinda plan on installing a blast gate on each end of wye outlet manifold directing it to either an external exhaust or running it through the filter in the winter. I did have some concerns about this because I thought I might "half" the airflow, but I think that's not the case as there is a single outlet going to two.


    Also a pic (or description) of the 7" inlet. All the photos on the grizz site have the three 4' adapter.

    Thanks!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #8
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    My questions are these:

    Is the 3hp, dual-bag setup overkill? I don't want to take up too much valuable real-estate in the shop so I would likely try to use a single collection bag, connecting the blower directly to that bag and venting outside. If I do that, I'm essentially creating the exact same setup as the 2hp version, just using a larger motor.

    Are there downsides to using this large a motor with less than half the SP loss (one bag vs. two, vent outside vs. 2.5 micron bags)? Should I be worried about sucking the collection bag shut or simply blowing *everything* outside?

    If I get the 2hp canister, should I expect decent dust collection (not just chip collection, which I assume will be acceptable) with the stock setup on 6" pipe runs of less than 20-25 feet with 3-4 90 degree turns?

    If I vent outside, what reasonable increase can I expect in my max. static pressure? Enough to offset the Thein separator?

    Has anyone tried to move one of these blowers up to the collection baffle (removing the rigid duct that connects them)? Will it fit and can I rotate it 90-degrees to point the intake downward? That makes a straight, rigid connection to the separator which seems like the most efficient setup possible. This is the only way I could justify the 3hp unit - it's simply too large to use in its stock configuration.
    I'll try to answer your questions about the 3hp vs 2hp configurations. It's true that many 2 and 3 hp units use the same impeller. A 2 hp DC exhausts into a single 5" hose and corresponding single bag or filter. The 3 hp DC exhausts into about a 6 x 6 square tube which branches into two about 4 x 6 tubes feeding the bags. A 3 hp DC probably doesn't move twice as much air, but I think you could safely say that it moves 50 percent more. Because the air is less impeded, the motor is rotating with less resistance, thereby actually working harder. Even though either motor will turn the same impeller, a 2 hp motor will burn up much more quickly, as it would be working a max capacity all the time. A 2 hp DC in contrast, is purposely under engineered to allow less airflow, thereby taxing the motor less.

    If you intend to use only one filter, you will essentially be doing the same under engineering thing to a 3 hp DC, so you won't be getting any advantage out of the bigger motor. The bigger one will just lope along. If you decide to use two filters (roughly doubling the potential airflow) or exhaust outside using large diameter ducting, you should definitely see some benefit from a larger motor.

    I personally replaced a Jet 1100 1.5 hp DC with a 3hp double cannister DC last year. The difference in performance is impressive, as is the throaty roar of the air coming through the two filters.

    Just keep in mind that the more modifications involving air resistance, reductions, cyclone, etc that you do, the less efficient your DC will become. That's why retail cyclone systems have much larger impellers, in order to overcome the added resistance.

  9. #9
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    I have the 3HP version with thien baffles installed inside the "rings" (after the impeller). I also put two Wynn environmental filters on it.

    I like the setup okay, but have had quite a bit of trouble sealing the modified components. I went from the provided cloth bags to the clear plastic bags for the bottom, and despite my best efforts (weather stripping, etc), fine dust still escapes between the bag and the bag clamps. It also escapes where the filters connect to the top of the rings.

    My point is just that it's not a slam dunk. I'm sure there are ways to fix my problems, but I'm starting to think I should've just vented everything into a dust collection bin outside... I would've avoided some hassle. The climate in the Seattle area is much more moderate than where some of you guys live, although it is pretty cold outside right now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Bregar View Post
    First how do you like the DC? I know you have had it a short time but impressions?
    Not sure how much my impression is worth, im new to woodworking (12-14yr cnc metal machinist just getting into woodworking) never owned or used a dust collector before. My current setup is temporary and not very efficient right now but is...

    - Off one of the DC's 4" ports i have acouple 45's creating close to a 180 degree to get all the hose to the back side of the DC (like i said, right now the set up is not efficient ) off that is a "Y" with one sort run and a longer run (described below).

    - 10' of 4" flex (pretty much laying on the floor) to a radial saw with a 4" port drectly behind the blade and a 2" above (like a box hood, one 4" port on the back and the 2" on the top to catch the "floating" dust), works great

    - a run of 4" pvc up to the ceiling with two 45's to make the corner wall to a 15' run with a "y" about 7 foot from the corner which drops to the floor then a 90 with 10' of flex to table saw. From the 7' "y" on the ceiling to the end of the 15' run it hooks to a 2" flex that drops down to a table and gets hooked to sanders.

    - Table saw is a grizzle 690, does an ok job of keeping the cabinet clean

    - Sanding: 5" Orbit Festool ETS 125 EQ and 4" Inch Makita 9404, works great.

    - Disconnect the table saw and hook the hose to a Ridgid 13in R4330 planer, works pretty good, but if i hook the 10' flex to one of the 4" ports directly on the DC, it works great.

    As for the 7" inlet - 3) 4" ports on the DC. The three 4" ports are like a single coupler which slides on the 7" inlet and is fastened by a screw. It can be taken off very easy (will take a pic tomorrow).

    Dimensions:
    A) 10.5
    B) Rectangular 8.5 x 7.25 (out side edge of the flange)
    C) Opps... i read this post with-out being logged in (did not see the helpful pic you posted) and took the measurement to the flange of the impellers housing, which is 18". The rectangular "y" coming off the impeller to the two bags comes off as one piece. Im in bed right now, so tomorrow i will re-measure along with a picture of the 7" inlet

    D) Took a measurement of the motor mount; 15.25 x 13.5

    Hope it helps.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Bregar View Post
    The challenge I see is the output side. Now I want to exhaust outside for most of the year, but my shop is in northern WI, so in winter will run it though the filter. The 3HP unit has the Y output. If you rotate the motor 90 one branch of the wye would point to the wall for outside exhaust, the other into the room for connection to the filter...if the connection to the filter can also be rotated 90...it looks square but need to call grizzly I guess. I would fab some blast gates to go out or in depending on season.
    How about this. First get the canister filter version (since it will be what you want when you are returning the air inside) mount a 6" PVC flange on the top of each canister then through a true union ball valve to the outside. Open the valves to vent outside, close them to vent through the filter. You could also bring the 2 6" pipes to one 8" with a single valve. This is what I had in mind before I decided to vent outside 365.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Huskey View Post
    How about this. First get the canister filter version (since it will be what you want when you are returning the air inside) mount a 6" PVC flange on the top of each canister then through a true union ball valve to the outside. Open the valves to vent outside, close them to vent through the filter. You could also bring the 2 6" pipes to one 8" with a single valve. This is what I had in mind before I decided to vent outside 365.
    Not sure exactly what you are describing here...the filter canisters would require modifying I assume...but if a 6" PVC true union ball valve is like this http://www.ntotank.com/6pvctrunbava1.html. Unless you are talking about something else I think a 6" blast gate would more than suffice.

  13. #13
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    I have a Grizzly dust collector with 2 HP 240volt motor that I bought in 2010. I recently moved it from an, outside the shop, closet to an 8'x8' metal shed. When I moved it I decided to wash the upper bag. I had not cleaned it since I bought it six years ago. Even though I lengthened the 6" metal duct 18' the suction is way up from before the move. Never thought to clean that upper bag before this. What an improvement! I will be cleaning that bag more often now.
    No PHD, but I have a DD 214

  14. #14
    If you vent a bag unit outside, would you not also vent out all the dust and pieces of wood that get sucked up into the system? Seems like you would need a cyclone to collect the sawdust into a barrel. I have a 3hp cyclone that I vent outside, and collect the dust in a barrel, works great. Built a blast gate on the outside vent so I can use a filter in cold weather.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Andrew View Post
    If you vent a bag unit outside, would you not also vent out all the dust and pieces of wood that get sucked up into the system? Seems like you would need a cyclone to collect the sawdust into a barrel. I have a 3hp cyclone that I vent outside, and collect the dust in a barrel, works great. Built a blast gate on the outside vent so I can use a filter in cold weather.
    No..., all I did was move a dust collector and clean up the upper bag. The dust collector is still the same, and still the same as I ran it indoors. It is not vented to the outdoors. It is vented to the bags which are outside the shop in a separate building. The dust collector is just as it was designed.
    No PHD, but I have a DD 214

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