Bowls vs. Hollow Forms - why?

[John Beaver]

I am curious.

I like open forms (bowls and vases) so that is what I usually make.
I like seeing the inside of the piece and I carry some of my designs through to the inside. Sometimes the inside can be different from the outside and I like the contrast of that. I also find my audience understands a bowl and sometimes asks "what is that" to the hollow form. I do make both, but usually it's a bowl

Some people make primarily hollow forms.

What do you prefer, and why?

[Bill Boehme]

The last thing that I want to do is limit the type of things that I turn so almost everything that I do is uniquely different from what I have turned before. I have turned very few "generic" bowls except for things like the Empty Bowls Project which is the charitable event that my club helps to support.

[charlie knighton]

mainly hollow forms, but should branch out

[George Guadiane]

John, I know this is a bit long and rambling, but you got me to thinking.
Before I get into the stuff about me, I want to thank you for the topic, because it got me to thinking about what we/I do and why. I like that, but more, I want to say that I really like your bowls. They are not "normal run of the mill" work, you added an element that makes them more than "service pieces," you made conversation pieces, ART. And well too!

Here goes:
For me, it's about the "bad side." For instance, I made a salad serving bowl for my Cousin Dave, he got me the East Indian Rosewood, it was the least I could do. But I made a bowl because that was what he wanted. I have another similar piece of that wood that I'm working on now... It's a hollow form. Why? because the wood is so beautiful from every angle that I just couldn't bare to show "just the bottom." It didn't have a "bad side."
For some hollow forms. it's because I can get a bigger piece if I leave in voids, but even there, its usually because I would rather have the hole as an accent for the character in the wood.

I'm working on a cored bowl commission for Christmas presents. I'll have more than half a dozen bowls left over, and, well, when they're done, I show them too, but till they are, when I have a brake from bowls, I tend to do "something else." I've made a few boxes recently and I just did a little stemmed cup, I'll turn pretty much anything, but I also prefer the hollow form because I only have to sand the outside, because they SEEM more difficult than bowls (I know better, getting a nice flowing curve on both sides of a form that matches takes a lot of patience and skill).

But I think, most of all, I make more hollow forms because you can't go out and get a mass produced one from WalMart or Crate and Barrel.
I recently sold my best cherry burl salad bowl for $500.00 (I would never have taken less). I have had it for quite some time. The woman who bought it, just paid and was REALLY happy to get it.
She understood the fact that it was "hand made" by this human from a rather unique piece of wood and that if she wanted unique things, she had to pay the price. If I had been one of the "big guys," I would have had a $1500.00 price tag on it... But that woman is as rare as the wood in the bowl (15 inches across with no bark inclusions - in cherry burl).
Most people don't know the difference, they don't see the difference between what we do and the $49.99 one at crate and Barrel or the one for $19.99 at WalMart. Its hard to sell to that crowd under any circumstance, but with that kind of competition, its almost impossible... Also, I watch what people would pick up most often at shows, what they looked at and for. I listened to the questions and watched how they responded to the answers. People like a story, they like learning something new. They like taking that knowledge and sharing it with their friends. I had one woman stop by and look, asking questions and leave to see the rest of the show with the ever popular "I'll Be Back, REALLY." She DID come back and literally swooped into the booth, picking up the piece that another potential customer was honing in on and said "That one is mine!" After the other person left, she said that she was sorry for being abrupt, but that she was afraid the other person might take the piece and she really wanted it. I've not had that happen with a bowl (yet).
Not very many people know about the hollow form process, and I have to say that I find it interesting myself. I guess that makes me better able to have some enthusiasm when I talk about them. Galleries report that they sell more of an artist/artisan's work when that person is there to represent their work. People buy the person, their story, their ideas, their values when they buy "unnecessary" items like fine wood.

When I'm out "shopping" for wood at my various local glory holes, I do seem to look for hollow form materials first, but I don't pass up GOOD bowl blank materials when they are available.

Thanks for the topic, I could go on, but I think I'll give someone else a turn.

[Jack Mincey]

I prefer to turn HF's for several reasons. First I think one can be more creative with the shape on a HF. Second, I find it easier to show off the wood nature created in HF's, since I can change the shape to help in this area sometimes. Third, I don't sand the inside of Forms with openings less than 2" except as far as one might feel with their finger. Did I mention I really don't like to sand. I can usually get a cut on the out side of my bowls that requires very little sanding so a small opening HF is a snap to sand. Fourth, When it comes to selling, HF's give you more money for the same size blank. I usually sell a HF for two or three times what an open bowl turned from the same size blank would sell for. I think that customers look at HF's as more of a decoration and are welling to spend more.
This being said, I still turn about the same amount of both open and Hollow Forms. I try and let the wood talk to me and let me know what will work the best.
Jack

[John Keeton]

Since I have only been at this now for a tad over a year, my experience is very limited. I do think both George and Jack have accurately stated the market situation and maximizing the wood.

And, George has accurately pointed out that your "bowls" are not just "bowls!!" They are art objects, and far from the norm.

But, for me, it is a very simple answer - turning bowls is boring for me. I don't have the ability to core and do the beautiful burled sets that Jack does - and, that would be a different story! Or, the unique cherry burl bowl George speaks of - not your usual bowl. But, turning run of the mill, plain wood bowls does nothing for my interest level. And, I don't do this for the money for sure, so it is about fulfilling my creative needs.

HFs let me do that, and with pedestals and finials, it lets me switch between spindle turning and bowl techniques - again, keeps it from being mundane. There are unlimited design options for HFs, but bowls are somewhat limited - at least if they are going to be attractive.

Now that have hacked off all the bowl makers - please note that I did not say bowls were boring!!!!! I said - "turning bowls is boring for me!"

[Alan Trout]

I started turning as a creative outlet for me. I prefer hollow forms but do turn a few bowls. The market issues that George discussed are pretty accurate. However I did sell a 10" bowl for $500 which was one of my cast wood and resin pieces. The bowl was intended for me but they really wanted it and offered a good amount of money.

Its not that bowls are boring or even boring to turn. I find hollow forms more challenging and I have more fun turning them because of the challenge. It may sound weird but I do not like turning utilitarian pieces such as salad bowls and probably would not use one if I did. I consider most of the stuff that I do to be shelf pieces and like it that way. Even if it looks like a salad bowl it is still a shelf piece to me.

Alan

[Barry Elder]

John, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. When you've seen one hollow form, you've seen them all. (Also applies to bowls!) My lathe is too light to handle large chunks of wood and is too abused to last much longer. But I don't buy any wood; I was the recipient of tons of wood provided by God and two hurricanes. And it took many adventures to salvage most of the wood. So every piece that I turn may not look like a "museum" piece, but it doesn't have to be put on a shelf to be admired, it can be put on your dining room table, coffee table, etc. In other words, usuable for fruit, nuts, candy, salad, etc. I do have a few pieces of pre-2004 wood left, but I ususally give those away. Visitors and customers alway get to hear the story behind the bowls!

And let me say that I am a huge fan of the pedestals and finials that you use to enhance your hollow forms. You and your compadres do magnificent work and I support your every effort to elevate the appreciation of your work.

[Thom Sturgill]

I have been turning for about 2 1/2 years and definitely consider myself to be in a learning phase (may it last forever). I turn for artistic reasons and do not sell, but rather gift my turnings at this point. I try to expand my experience with every turning I do, and seldom re-visit a particular form once I feel that I have a degree of mastery of the form as there is always something new to learn. I have only done a few HFs and am looking to purchase some type off captured system to see if it makes it a little less nerve racking.

Right now I am more concerned with learning to apply 'enhancements' such as dye, pyrography, and carving than particular forms. At this point bowls, both open and semi-closed provide an easier 'canvas' for those.

[Robert McGowen]

I mostly do segmented work, which tends to lend itself to a hollow form or vase shape. My point of view may also be a little skewed, as I turn to sell.

I think from a selling viewpoint, as mentioned above, bowls seem more utilitarian, while hollow forms are more decorative. Thus, they command higher prices, even though they may be made from the same amount of wood. In my experience, people want to pick up and examine a vase and peer inside of it. They ask about how it was made. They know that they can not buy a vase like this at IKEA, but they do know they can get the 6-piece wooden bowl set for the same price as one bowl that I may have.

I think another factor is the skill and the tools involved. Most everyone starts with spindle work. They move to making small bowls, then large bowls, then a small vase, then larger vases. Each step requires more tools and more skill. People stop at or return to different steps along the progression and turn what they like to turn the most or are best at. My personal opinion is that a really nice segmented vase requires a certain amount of skill in several different areas of woodworking. It certainly requires the most amount of tools! I also happen to like to turn vases and do segmented work, so together, it works for me.

[Baxter Smith]

Very interesting question and I will enjoy reading the responses. Ones response(at least mine) is somewhat influenced by your situation; where you get your wood and where you are in your turning progression. Turned my first bowl about the first of December last year from a piece of spalted maple I got from my woodpile. Turned my first hollowform about 6 weeks later. Over the past year I have turned predominantly green/decaying/salvaged wood. All of it would have rotted if I hadn't chosen to do something with it. Even though I am dealing with wood that cost me little other than labor, I still am somewhat tied to the "I've got to turn it before it goes bad" train of thought! Its faster to rough out a bowl than a hollowform so I have done more of those. Not to mention my shoulders can be sore for a couple of days after doing a hollowform. Its also tough to fit together finials and lids with wood that is still changing shape.

Still haven't answered the question have I. I like both equally well for now. Though I have no interest in turning a simple bowl out of plain straightgrained wood, I still find it fascinating to turn a new species, a spalted piece or one that is full of color. I have recently tried a couple of once turned hollowforms. Something for a change and I get to see a finished product sooner. My year of waiting for things to dry in bags is almost up so maybe after I start returning some of my bowls and hollowforms, I will have more of an opinion one way or the other. For now I am happy with either and enjoy switching back and forth.

[Jim Burr]

I like the challenge of the whole spectrum of forms. I make wobble bottom bowls...no foot, regular bowls, weed pots, bottle stoppers, salt boxes and peppermills, and in the last few weeks, hollow forms. Some of it is financial as others have pointed to. I sell a large quantity of pens. 3 more and I get my new Jet 1642 EVS, they're also how I bought my Monster. Any type of turning can be a challenge and part of being a well rounded wood worker is learning...not necessarily mastering many different aspects of each craft. On the other hand, look at the work of some of the people here...would you rather see Mr. Keeton make a pen or one of his pedestal pieces? I'd rather see Alan Trout make HF's than a bottle stopper. Some people have a nack with certain aspects of turning, not that any one person should limit what they do, but they happen to be great at a specific segment of turning.

[Sean Hughto]

It seems to me that a lot of it is taste. For example, I believe that jazz music is a valid art form and that jazz has had many virtuoso/master muscians who have contributed to making masterpieces in the genre; but, I don't personally love to listen to most jazz. I'm not a fan or connisseur of the art form; it's just not my favorite flavor.

Similarly, most hollow forms I've seen, I'm not anxious to own to put up on my shelf. That said, I'd love to have a giant Ellsworth hollow form, for example. I like covered jar and box type forms, but as a general matter, eye candy forms on sticks with finials are not my cup of tea. Unlike many of you, from what I'm reading here, I lean hard to the utilitarian aspects of turning. I like bowls that can be used. Ditto with boxes and jars. I certainly try to make them visually pleasing, but as with my flatwork, I would never add an aesthetic feature that interfered with the intended utility.

I like the tradition of treen. I like the idea of folks using and enjoying what I make in their day to day lives. I like the idea of interacting with wood objects, be it a cabinet, a chair, or a bowl. Sculpture is great, but a perfect salad bowl is great too, in my book.

[Dave Ogren]

Thanks for starting this thread. I have only turned bowls, but am interested in hollow forms also. I think that hollow forms sell for three (3) times as much money because they take a whole lot more time to make. Am I right ?
My situation, I am wondering how to do a hollow form without a tailstock or bed (ways). Can this be done ?
I am thinking that a person has to be good at bowls before trying a HF ??
Two days ago I finished turned a cherry 14" by 6" bowl, from log to paper bag it took me about 2 hours, also no band saw. Am I getting close ?
I have also been told that before you get into coring you have to have done at least 500 bowls the wasteful way. Is that correct ?
Without a bed I think that I am limited to a Kelton coring system is that correct ?
If I have asked too many questions or gotten to far of of the subject, please delete my post.
Thanks for all you do to help beginners like me.
Sincerely,

Dave

[Bernie Weishapl]

Interesting views and idea's. Myself I like turning a variety of things from bottle stoppers, pens, ornaments, bowls, HF's, canisters, urns, etc. I guess you would say to broaden my experiences. I do like Jim sell most of my turnings which has paid for my lathes and most of my tools. When it comes down to it though I love to make mainly utility items though. One they sell better in my area and two is seeing people use them in their daily lives. We just got back last night from a week with the kids. We had salad with dinner 3 nights this last week in salad bowls I made for them 4 yrs ago. My grandson eats cereal every morning out of one or the other of two bowls I made for him 3 yrs ago.