Questions about jewelry engraving / manual engravers

[Jay Khan]

Hi all,

I have a manual pantograph flat engraver I had purchased new but I'm not sure if the engraving is deep or good enough compared with a computerized engraver.

I have a few questions for you guys:

1: are the manual jewelry engravers (inside ring and flat pantograph) any good? meaning do the diamond tip engravings go as deep as the computerized engraving? are there different type of diamond tips, like wide or slim tips?

2: how does the etched/engraved area of the metal turn black during engraving? any chemicals etc or it depends on the metal?

I'm sure I did not word most of the stuff properly but I hope I made some sense.

Thanks again guys and gals.

-Jay

[Dan Hintz]

The brass turning black is via a chemical rubbed on after engraving through the clear protectant coat and into raw brass.

[Mike Null]

The advantage of a computerized engraver vs a pantograph is that you can create or import art and create, kern and size text. A pantograph uses patterns usually made from brass. You are therefore limited to the numbers of brass fonts you own and the number of art patterns as to your output.

The computerized machine and the pantograph engrave at virtually the same depth when using a diamond graver.

You can buy different width diamonds from Bruce Diamond but they are of limited use. It's more important to look at the cutting angle. The most common is 120 deg. Others are available up to 150 deg. and a 90 deg. diamond is available for lacquered pens. Some like to use a 130 deg. for gold and sterling.

The diamond doesn't cut--it spreads the metal. The pantograph is still widely used in jewelry stores.

Dan is correct about the brass--on coated brass and aluminum you can turn the engraved area black by using an oxidizing liquid. If the brass isn't coated avoid using the liquid as the entire piece will turn black.

I have both machines and use the computerized machine for almost all work.

One of my customers is a jewelry store and I do a considerable amount of cylindrical work for them.

[Rodne Gold]

It's good enough for what you want to do - I have manual machines as well and we often use em over our computerised machines for simple jobs.
You normally dont use the motor on a manual machine for jewellery engraving - called "scratch" engraving. In fact in 20+ years I been using manuals , I think I may have used the motor a dozen times.
As Mike says , your major issue is going to be the limited amount of type styles you have and the difficulty in engraving logos.
My main use for my manual machines are small plates but by far the biggest use is to engrave silver plated cup type trophys (we sell em) which a lot of computerised machines cant handle due to size or compound curves.
I dont use Diamond bits as I manufacture my own burnishing or scratch bits using tungsten carbide , modifying broken PC drilling bits that I get almost free.

[Mark Winlund]

One fact not mentioned here is that a manual machine will do a slightly better job of engraving because the diamond is not driven by steppers. The effect is slight, but noticeable. Of course, economically speaking, the pantograph is in the dark ages.

I have a Gorton 3D machine that is a work of art.... but nearly totally useless compared to a VMC.

Mark

[Mike Null]

Mark

That assumes that your pattern is in good condition.

[Bill Cunningham]

If you practice a bit, and back the focus off on a piece of acrylic, you will find, for the lack of a better name, a 'sweet spot' where a vector hairline will cut a tapered, snug, stylus groove in the acrylic in what ever larger size design or text you need. then just tape the acrylic 'master' down to the table and slide the pantograph stylus around it.. I've only used my pantograph about 3 times since I got the laser, and for each of these times, I used the laser to make the master pattern I needed. Some things just can't be done on a laser, and the old pantograph still works..

[Dan Ashlin]

When I recently took over a local engraving shop, the original owner kept his pantograph. I'm missing it now since I can't do coins or anything with a
curve on the computerized diamond drag machine. Although, the ammount of business I've turned down because I don't have one isn't nearly the ammount of money a new one costs. I can believe something that simple still can cost upwards of $2k. Don't even get me started on font sets.

[Mark Winlund]

When I recently took over a local engraving shop, the original owner kept his pantograph. I'm missing it now since I can't do coins or anything with a
curve on the computerized diamond drag machine. Although, the ammount of business I've turned down because I don't have one isn't nearly the ammount of money a new one costs. I can believe something that simple still can cost upwards of $2k. Don't even get me started on font sets.

The word is..... Ebay. Lots of machines available on ebay. Also, although I have a lot of brass fonts, when I need something really specific or a logo, I will use the CNC engraver to create a pattern out of phenolic, then engrave using the pantograph. A bit of lock-ease in the grooves helps considerably. Not too hard to put a logo on a pen or a ring in this way. (Of course, you need a ring engraver also!)

There are some CNC engravers out there that do bowls and mugs, but they are not cheap, and have been superceded by the lasers.

By the way, a ring engraver is a real money maker. You have to do it right the first time, though. Rings that get engraved are usually high value items. Best to have a friendy jeweller that can erase your mistakes!

Mark

[Mike Null]

It tends to be the older jewelers who know how to use the pantograph and many of them do not wish to continue engraving. That opens up many opportunities as soon as you can acquire some skill and some fonts. It seems the first place many people go to have certain items engraved is the jewelry store. I do a lot of silver and pewter but actually sell none.

Mark is on target when he says eBay. I recently bought a machine in new condition with 8 font sets and all accessories for $900. This was a $6000+ machine new and will do large cylindrical items.

[Rodne Gold]

The trick to doing fonts or logo templates on a CNC machine is to not have any sharp corners and to get the kerning right (spacing between letters)
You can grind your follower (the tip that traces the font/template) to match your engraving tip with the following caveat - the follower must NOT bottom out in the template - IE its tip must be much shallower than the engraving tip. A high polish on the follower is also a big plus so it glides easier in the templates. I use acrylic for logo templates and 1.6mm engravers brass for font typestyles.