Unbelievable New Chisels

[Dale Sautter]

Google for "Unbelievable New Chisels", as I understand that we can't link to other forums...

This sure sounds promising! Sounds like CPM 3V will find its way into more and more uses/shops with time. Also sounds like it won't be all that tough to sharpen/hone using diamond paste and that using high end stones won't cut the mustard here. Just wondering if anyone else might have comments, and why is it that woodworkers in general seem to lag behind the knife makers on this edge of the slope?...

The following is a quote on page 10 of that thread when asked: "At what bevel angle ranges and rc hardness has CPM 3V been found to work optimally at?"

I don't have definite answer, but will tell you what I know. An optimum hardness would be based on what you would be using it for. Crucible recommends a hardness of RC 58-60, but thats for steel dies. With wood work, we're not demanding that kind of toughness. I went with a hardness of RC 61, which is at the higher end based on information that I have gotten from old knifemakers who do nothing but make knives for a living. They said that even at the max hardness Crucible recommends, they haven't seen any chipping or edge fracturing. Their judgment is good enough for me, and they have been proven right. As I researched the use of 3V, I saw that it has been used well before my tests and they found that the edge doesn't start to roll until you get down to a 17° bevel and that a 25° bevel works just fine in mortise chisels. I have no proof of this but I don't doubt their words in any way.

I don't have a picture yet, but a fellow knife maker said that a client took a 3V blade hardened to RC 61, drove it into a stump and then took a pipe and bent it 180°, basically into a U. It did not crack or chip, he did that 3 times before it broke. This was around a campfire at a hunting camp so I have no doubt adult beverages were involved. There is a picture of it and I am hunting it down.

I know this is not a definite answer, but it is what I know. Torture tests are down the road as I know this will become an issue.

Wouldn't it be fantastic to be able to have a 20° - 25° bevel for a low angle miter plane that would not chip out, and an edge that would survive many hours of end grain planing!?

[Jim Koepke]

It looks as though they may require a completely different sharpening set up for some users.

This could be a deal killer for some.

As the steel becomes tougher for doing the work, it becomes tougher to get into shape to do the work.

jim

[Dale Sautter]

I believe you're right Jim... think it'll be a "deal maker" too if I've found the right diamond sharpening paste. A couple/few tubes of that stuff and a discarded cast iron tablesaw top or top extension via Craigslist, you're good to go. Much cheaper than the Shapton approach that only works on HCS too. Hope this pans out as well as it's looking... and I suppose that having a belt grinder with ceramic belts wouldn't hurt too. Again, that doesn't have to cost too much...

[Zach England]

Dang, I knew I shouldn't have ordered those Lie-Nielsens.

[Bob Strawn]

7 Reasons why woodworkers are behind knifemakers on metallurgy.

1. Knife makers are metal workers. Woodworkers work wood.

2 I suspect that the adoption of finer steels in knives came in part by the introduction of ceramic sharpening sticks. More advanced steels can be a real pain to sharpen on a lot of conventional systems.

3 Woodworkers tend to focus on wood and productivity and with the standard advice of sticking to a sharpening system and learning it, a lot of woodworkers have a strong resistance to exploring new systems.

4 2 out of 3 innovations in sharpening are rendered useless by an hour of good instruction by someone who knows how to sharpen and how to teach sharpening. Also a lot of folk struggle and struggle with sharpening and finally get to where they can hold their hand just right and do a good job.

They don't understand it clearly enough to explain, so the last thing they want to do is anything that will change anything. Since it was such a frustrating struggle to get to where they could manage to produce an edge, change is frightening.

Without adopting at least in some cases, more advanced sharpening materials, the new steels are going to be a real pain to put a good edge on.

5 The odd spot in history that we sit in. After WWII, the modern tool era took over and horrid stuff started to be cranked out. No mentor was there to help woodworkers to know what was good, so there was no real pressure to make good. Horrid electric drills ended up replacing amazing braces. People started to believe that factory sharp, was.

As the post modern era took over, early Neanderthal's, even before the name Galoot was applied, talked by news letter, or in rare cases bulletin boards. They knew that the old tools were the good tools There were so many amazing tools at auctions and flea markets. Any good tool that did not have enough bling and ivory to make it valuable, had to be saved from the saw painters and planter makers. Quite generously, they spread the word and came up with very trusting methods of distributing these wonderful tools, generously sharing what they had gleaned in the way of woodworking.

So now we have woodworkers who have recovered a good part of what their grandfathers knew, and may even in a few areas know a bit more. Many of these woodworkers have benefited from the information that the web addicted Neanderthals have put on these forums, but then they got tired of the endless sharpening debates and have gone back to the shops to do wood working, and only lurk when they need answers or ideas. A lot of them have nice tools already.

6. The old steel is not broken. O1 is a great metal, durable, edge holding, tough and easily sharpened, if it is tempered well. Old tools can be tuned up, and if you already have a huge set of good, functional tools, the last thing you want to hear is that the new blades are better.

7. Old tools work really well. New tools that work well are usually made by folk that looked real closely at old tools. Too many of the shiny new tools are lame but flashy designs or made by child labor in a distant land. New is suspect for a very good reason.


I have played around with the new steels enough to know that the new blades will be better. This does not mean that O1 will be gone. O1 is great stuff. I can temper it without too much trouble. A tool can be made with it much more easily. People who make tools will also be able to cut corners and make just as bad a tool with the new metals as they did with the old ones. I am sure that a lot of them will continue to do business by hype and not substance. What I like, however are the options.

I think that we will soon enough see mortise chisels that can also be used to clean up dovetails. This means that the range of chisels that you need may be simplified considerably. If a beater stays sharp and can survive with a low angle, then half of your chisels are no longer needed or convenient. If a light chisel is able to take the abuse that used to be left for the bulky chisels, your tool box is lighter. If an edge holds up longer and is rust resistant, then the iron you buy for your plane, may just last the rest of your life, even if you are a production woodworker.

So we may see some real economy come out of this. Less metal, more range, longer lifetime means the new tools may end up being the value buy. My thought is to get a few to replace your most abused tools as they wear out. No need for your entire plow blade collection to be replaced, just the two you actually use.

But first, people who adopt these tools are going to have to adopt modern sharpening medias.

Bob

[Dave Anderson NH]

Great distillation of the recent history of hand tools Bob. I laughed heartily about sneaking back to the bench to do actual woodworking instead of acquiring more tools. I look at my woodworking purchases now and compare them to a few years ago and the differences are amazing. Now the folks at the woodworking stores see me mostly when I come in to buy hardware or some more finishing materials. Recently at my local Woodcraft one of the clerks asked me where I had been and said that he hadn't seen me in months. I was there for a guild Period Furniture meeting and after it was over walked out without spending a cent. I figure I should be back there again in about 6 months.

[John Schreiber]

. . . why is it that woodworkers in general seem to lag behind the knife makers on this edge of the slope?...
. . .

Woodworkers who use tools inevitably use edge tools until they are dull then sharpen them - repeatedly. Typically there is a consistent trade off between the speed that an edge dulls and the amount of time it takes to sharpen it. Sharpening becomes part of the process of woodworking.

An awful lot of knife buyers are collectors will demonstrate how sharp their blade is on occasion, but do not use them regularly. Even if they are buying a knife for frequent use, a knife owner doesn't inevitably have the skills to resharpen. This puts a high premium on blades which keep their edge for a long time, even if it means it will never be resharpened when it does get dull.

[Bob Strawn]

Recently at my local Woodcraft one of the clerks asked me where I had been and said that he hadn't seen me in months. I was there for a guild Period Furniture meeting and after it was over walked out without spending a cent. I figure I should be back there again in about 6 months.

Not much point in your buying a tool when you know you can make one better! Seriously, if Joel is willing to sell your tools, they are probably more than fit for the job.

I can imagine you taking a sketch book out at the Woodcraft, not so much to copy their design, but to jot down how you would do it better!

Bob

[Dan O'Sullivan]

Dave
Its funny how the sharpening thing takes on a life of it's own. I have read lots of messages about going to 8000 stones and other very fine grits. I have not seen the projects(photos) that they produce. Its a tough balance to maintain: work the wood with a good edge or stay at the stone and get that killer edge. I still base my return to the stone/leather/paste on the action of the tool on the wood. Experience polishes the balance.

Dan

[Rick Markham]

I agree completely with that John! Having been a professional Chef for many years, we preferred the same characteristics in steel that woodworkers like, A durable edge that can be gotten extremely sharp, but still easy to sharpen. Even in that industry, there are many "professionals" who carry around dull knives... I generally could judge someone's knife skills pretty accurately by the condition of their knives, and sharpening skills. I was fortunate to have an amazing chef teach me my sharpening skills, I honestly can't think of one person I met in that industry besides who my chef taught who had a knife even remotely as sharp and those are the professionals! The average persons kitchen knives, even when they are the nicest ones, are absolutely abhorrent!

[Steve knight]

the main reason why knives metallurgy has far outpaced woodworking metallurgy is money. Far more money is made selling knives then in selling chisels. so of course follows more exotic materials are easier to sell.

[Dave Diaman]

Hey guys, I am the guy who has been testing these. I have to say that this steel is just unreal. The edge retention is unlike anything I have ever seen. Comparing these to my Japanese blue steel chisels is like comparing a Home Depot Buck Brothers chisel to blue steel. Just to give you an idea I chopped dovetails in 8 drawers with one 3/8” bench chisel and one ½” fishtail chisel and when I was finished both would still shave. That was with curly hard maple as the primary wood and curly soft maple as the secondary wood. I can’t even imagine how long these will last in poplar or white pine. I make my living in the shop so time spent working instead of sharpening is huge for me.

The sharpening is a little more difficult on these but a cheap set of diamond stones or some diamond grit sand paper makes quick work of it. After the initial sharpening all I have had to do is touch them up ever 150 dovetails or so on a leather stop with some diamond compound on it. I have been using diamond abrasives for a long time so this wasn’t really a change for me. I think John may be planning on sending these out already sharp in the future so that will take care of the initial sharpening.

The guy who made these chisels for me isn’t the first guy to try it but I am pretty sure that he is the first one who is trying to put them into production along with plane blades in custom steels. He is going to be sending me some additional steels to try out and I have sent some of these along to a friend I have at a magazine and I pretty sure they will be just as impressed as I have been. He is also sending some custom plane blades to another woodworker which I think are going to see equal success.

Below is a picture of the set of bench chisels I have and one of the fishtail chisels I have. The guy who is making these is basically going to build the chisel to your specs. I don’t think he has his final pricing complete yet but from what he is telling me his prices should be comparable to L-N and Blue Spruce which is a bargain when you consider what you are getting. I think he is also going to offer a kit which includes just the iron and the ferrule along with mounting instructions for anyone who likes to make their own handles.

Since I don’t think I am allowed to post links here anyone who wants to contact him can feel free to send ma a PM or email and I can give you his information. I think he is starting a waiting list and will be starting production of these soon. I don’t think he was expecting the testing on these to go as well as it has so he is still trying to get some things lined up before he starts production.


to see the scale





Very well balanced





Taper is perfect for dovetails





Full set of dovetail chisels minus the 1/8 and 1/4 which are on the way

[Rick Markham]

Those are some purdy Chisels... just my 2 cents though why not make them sockets, instead of Tangs. If I personally am going to drop some money on a set of nice chisels (and I am looking right now) I want socket chisels, simply so I can change handles. I want to be able too make my own handles easily for comfort, have the ability to change to longer handles for paring, and replace the handles when they become worn. The steel (especially if his real world results are true) then the chisels will definitely see many lifetimes worth of handles. Just a thought

[Larry Frank]

I would also rather have socket chisels but would guess that to produce those would take significantly more material to be able to turn the socket area and there would be a lot of waste in the chisel area. This material may be more difficult to turn than some of the other tool steels such as A2 or O1.

I looked at the prices for this material on some of the knife websites and it is not cheap.

I read through several of the sites talking about how this material is produced. The liquid metal is sprayed producing very small spheres. These are then put in a press at high temps to produce a very dense material. There is no doubt that this process produces a product that is superior to more convential methods of tool steel production in terms of less or no segregation and much finer and uniform dispersion of the hard carbide particles.

I would not mind trying this material if it was just the increased cost of the material but the additional cost to go to diamond sharpening puts it out of my reach. My sharpening skills are improving with the water stones and can a pretty good sharp chisel. I do not know if my skills are good enough for this material.

It will be interesting to get read the feedback as more people work with this material in chisels and plane blades.

[Dave Diaman]

Larry is correct. It is just not feasible for a small custom chisel maker to produce socket type chisels due to the machining and material cost involved. This steel is a great deal more expensive than A2 and much harder to work from what I am told. I am not even sure if it is available in bar stock.