T/G flooring.....

[David Nelson1]

One of my projects for the house is new flooring. I ran across a great deal on 800 bdft of red oak. That would be enough to do the bedrooms and all the closets. My questions really have to do with tooling.

I just purchased a JET JWS-22CS Shaper from a fellow Creeker and would like to outfit it with a power feeder. I have looked @ Grizzly and they seem to have 2 offerings G4176 1/4 HP Power Feeder and the G4173 Baby Power Feeder that might fit my needs. I just don't know enough about what it takes to drive the stock on a shaper. Could use a little help here. 2nd would be what type cutter to use, a moulder or shaper style head?

I know better than to buy a cutter that is not designed for flooring because of the nail recess and the gap that is needed to allow the top of the boards to mate properly. I have found this from Amana SC450 Shaper

It's seems that the gullets cut from the back side of the lap or pretty much discretionary by most accounts I have read. Some think its to reduce the weight for shipping, while other seem to think it helps lay the lap flat. Either way I think I'll do it just to stay safe. Any idea of how to accomplish this task in one step?

I have linked a thread from 2 years ago that might shake some cobwebs loose. http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=75863

Thanks in advance

[Joe Chritz]

Insert stealth gloat here in 3,2,1.....

A feeder's real short fall is in the weight and stiffness of the arm assembly and of the wheels ability to exert down force. I had a baby feeder which works OK but is definately not heavy duty.

I just picked up a 1 HP, 4 wheel, 8 speed Accura/Comatic feeder from fleabay. The stand alone on this one weighs as much as the entire unit of the baby feeder.

You will be much happier saving your pennies and getting something 1/2 HP or bigger. Even buying new the cost from 1/2 to 1 HP was very small and I got an extra wheel. As it turns out the 1HP was less than a new 1/2 HP.

I guarantee you won't ever say, I wish I bought a smaller feeder.

Joe

[David Nelson1]

Thanks for the tip Joe. I can see where weight could be a prime factor in traction. I just worried about the footprint of the feeder on the machine. Guess I need to keep looking for specs if that's possible.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree with going with the 1/2 HP feeder.

I've had a 1/2 HP feeder for a few years, it's a nice size for a home shop as it's stiff enough to provide enough hold down force.

Don't worry about power, at the speeds the feeder moves material, 1/2 HP is enough to pull your car out of a hole, so it will have no problem moving a door panel along the shaper.

I have mine on a tilt away bracket, however on a single purpose machine like a shaper you would simply drill and tap the holes in the rear left corner of the shaper.

You'll really like having a shaper, it improves the quality of the cut, and your safety.

Regards, Rod.

[David Nelson1]

Morning Rod,
I was just getting ready to PM you. In the tread that I posted from a few years ago you mention adding a shim against the aux fence to produce the same width stock ?? Did I get that right? Can your clarify that? I am having a mental block and can't picture the technique.

[Joe Chritz]

I only mentioned the 1 HP feeder because if you are buying new it is (from grizzly) a $125 upgrade from 1/2 HP 3 wheel to 1 HP 4 wheel. Either will do very well for you and like someone else mentioned in another thread (with the gear reduction will pull the shaper up the stairs).

For you fence Q. You just off set the outfeed fence to line up with the cutter edge of a straight cutter. The infeed is set back (deeper) by whatever you want to take off. Essentially a jointer laying sideways, if that helps.

For the record with most rail / stile cutters you can do the same thing for 5 piece doors and the sticks come out profiled and final width. It would work the same for T and G cutters.

Joe

[Rod Sheridan]

Morning Rod,
I was just getting ready to PM you. In the tread that I posted from a few years ago you mention adding a shim against the aux fence to produce the same width stock ?? Did I get that right? Can your clarify that? I am having a mental block and can't picture the technique.

Hi, I probably was talking about an outboard fence on the shaper.

The stock feeder pushes the work against the outboard fence, the distance from the cutter to the outboard fence controls the final width of the flooring.

The cutter takes away the entire edge, so the work is about 1/16" wider than desired final dimension.

Do not attempt to run material between the outboard fence and the cutter by hand, only the stock feeder is strong enough to do this.

Regards, Rod

[David Nelson1]

Thanks Joe. I went back and re-read what Ron had posted a few years ago and he added clarification as well. I got a pretty good understanding of the basics, but as usual I'm sure something weird will pop up or I'll make things a bit harder than normal. Thanks for the help

[David Nelson1]

Got it Rod. Just had to go re-read what you wrote. It differed greatly from what I was thinking LOL

[Peter Quinn]

Hi David. I'm unfortunately making way too much flooring for my liking at work presently. Possibly the most boring millwork operation I can personally think of. Other operations are slow due to economy, and flooring marches on as a profit center. It may prove more rewarding to make a custom floor for your own house, but the repetition is considerable, as is the waste produced.

In any event, we make lots of wide plank that won't fit through the molder on a couple of shapers. I think a 1/2HP feeder would easily push flooring less than 8" in width, maybe more if the table is well waxed. You aren't taking a very large or deep cut. A 1/4HP feeder is pushing it in terms of not enough power and rigidity to hold the boards flat and move them forward, and a baby feeder is pretty much out of the question IMO.

The amana set should be fine for a small run of a few thousand square feet. Looks like all the geometry is right. Mill the grooves first on a split fence and the tongues second on a long straight back fence, using a feeder for both operations. Consider having your lumber at least S3S'd commercially, and possibly planed and sanded to .775". That will take away most of the hard part of manufacturing a good floor in a small shop and is IMO well worth the cost involved.

For the relief cuts on the face that will face the floor, you pretty much need a mini molder or molder planer to to do this in one pass easily. Like a Williams and Hussey, or woodmaster, or jet 13" molder planer. We have had relief knives made for a planer at work and clamped guide boards to the table to work just like a molder for boards that were too wide, so that is an option too if you have a floor model planer. I feel you could also use a jointer with knives that are ground for the purpose, using a feeder or mechanical hold downs. It could also be done on a shaper with a molder head. This last one assumes your fence can take the pressure of the feeder against it. If not you could make a fence for the purpose from plywood that would do it. I suppose you could get twice the width of the largest molding head your shaper can handle. Mine can handle 3" head easily, maybe 4" for a cut as shallow as relief knives?

Another multi pass option is the TS with a dado blade and a feeder, or a molding head with knives meant for the purpose, like a magic molder. I have also done a board or two on a router table with a core box, but thats pretty slow on a whole room or two. The dado makes rather sharp edges but does work and cost very little if you already have the TS and dado, though you pay in terms of time given all the passes required.

Good luck with it.

[David Nelson1]

Thanks Peter, A lot of good info in your post. It will be used wisely.

[Brad Shipton]

Dave, before we start getting into the machine needs, I would like to know what you mean by a good deal on the red oak? What width is the stock and what widths are you aiming for? I will assume the rough stock is 4/4 thick.

I cannot tell how set on this project you are, but I have made around 1,000sq ft for my house, and I must say this was one of my worst decisions in the house renovating project. It is far too time consuming and after you get all the tools and equipment you might not find you really save that much money. The professional shops run this through the plants at an alarming rate, so the actual milling cost is not huge unless you are going for something custom. I suggest you take a close look at your material to see how much you expect to yield. I would seriously consider putting that stock aside and wait to work on a fun project.

I used my shaper to make the relief cuts. I had some blades made for a 4" tall cutter that mimick the relief cuts Mirage uses in their 5" wide plank flooring. I dont know what flooring width you are aiming for, so this might not work for you. I have built 4.5" wide, 6.75", 8" and 11.25" widths all with this method. The middle cut on the 11.25" stock was made with the dado on my saw. I suspect the under the nut capacity of your machine is 3", so you can probably do up to 6" wide with two passes.

Are you planning to end match the planks?

Good luck
Brad

[David Nelson1]

Dave, before we start getting into the machine needs, I would like to know what you mean by a good deal on the red oak? What width is the stock and what widths are you aiming for? I will assume the rough stock is 4/4 thick.

I cannot tell how set on this project you are, but I have made around 1,000sq ft for my house, and I must say this was one of my worst decisions in the house renovating project. It is far too time consuming and after you get all the tools and equipment you might not find you really save that much money. The professional shops run this through the plants at an alarming rate, so the actual milling cost is not huge unless you are going for something custom. I suggest you take a close look at your material to see how much you expect to yield. I would seriously consider putting that stock aside and wait to work on a fun project.

I used my shaper to make the relief cuts. I had some blades made for a 4" tall cutter that mimick the relief cuts Mirage uses in their 5" wide plank flooring. I dont know what flooring width you are aiming for, so this might not work for you. I have built 4.5" wide, 6.75", 8" and 11.25" widths all with this method. The middle cut on the 11.25" stock was made with the dado on my saw. I suspect the under the nut capacity of your machine is 3", so you can probably do up to 6" wide with two passes.

Are you planning to end match the planks?

Good luck
Brad

Hey Brad
Stock is 4/4 and boards are between 13-15 inches wide by 12 foot. As far as the milled stock, I was thinking 4 1/4 with a face of 4 inches. The deal .50 a bdft. The other consideration was to have a pattern of 2, 3, 4, 3, and then 2 again. I have moved away from that, but might still consider it after some careful measurements of wood and rooms.

Believe me when I say I do understand the scope of the job. More than likely will wish I had not undertaken this task if I run into a few to many bumps in the road, but for $10,000 as quoted (installed) I should wind up with up to 50% savings. Now even if I could find something the wife liked and a minimum $ 2.99 a square that's close to $6,000. Will I save any money, probably not much figuring all the other expenses. Time is a commodity that is short, but I'm in no hurry, a room @ a time. I get a pretty big kick out of doing something myself, maybe its the complusive nature... maybe its just the end product... Who knows! LOL

The whole relief cut thing is a portion I have yet to figure out. As I have said before some think it good idea and needed, some say its useless. To accomplish the relief cuts I have seen suggestions that range from a moulding head on a table saw, to doing a cope on the T/S with a canted sled, to using the jointer with a moulding knives installed. Of course 12' stock with be a pain in the neck no matter what method is used.... I have not picked the machine up because I'm on business trip, but I think 3 inches under the nut sounds about right. Just looked it up 2 15/16". No idea what that translates to yet LOL.

End matching .... no unless someone can convience me otherwise. Thanks for taking the time to help out. Really do appreciate it.

[Brad Shipton]

I totally understand where you are coming from. I got hooked on a mirage flooring product that retailed for $12/sqft when I was looking. If you (and your wife) are prepared to spend around 120hr (manuf, install & finish) on this project, plus any delays while you figure things out, then lets get at it.

Ok, so you have what sounds like some pretty nice stock. At that price, I hope it is not mill run or something other that is typically referred to as "rustic". My last batches I made random widths, and it did complicate the process a little, but I did manage to reduce my waste a lot. The width of my last stock varied widely, so that is why I opted for randoms. If your stock is relatively uniform in width, I would not bother.

Like I said, I did make some wide planks, but that really complicates the production in a hobbiest shop. I am sure you know the reasons why one should not use wide planks, but the humidity in my area is very uniform and I can get away with it. The downside of the wide boards is they do not always flatten perfectly under the wheel pressure, so some of my tongues and grooves did not work out as perfect as I would have liked. This led to quite a few extra hours behind the sander (brazillian cherry is way too hard). The other problem with wide planks is the fact that they do not flex at all during install. This means you need to get the boards as straight as humanly possible in your shop (All little errors accumulate during the install). This is true for pretty much any board over 4" wide I think. I had many many boards that were 10' long, so that was a challenge. I used an outboard fence on my last batches and they worked out much better than my first.

To decide on the width I would look closely at the stock. Get an idea how much you will loose straight lining the stock. From the stock width you describe I would be leaning towards something around 5" (two pieces per 13" width, and three per 15").

I opted to go with relief cuts mainly since that is what is recommended by the national flooring regs. Anyway you slice it, you will run each board past the shaper or a dado head two times, so it does not matter too much. The profile of relief cuts seems to vary quite a bit so I don't think there is much of a science behind that req't.


What Peter mentioned is very true. About 90% of the work is making the flooring blanks. The actual T&G and reliefs is not a big part of doing this yourself. I generated 5-45gal drums of sawdust going from rough to ready to install for a 300sqft batch I tracked.

The end matching is up to you.

Brad

[David Nelson1]

I can't agree more about measurements and room size versus plank width. I did find a place that looks as if they might be able to hook me up with something for the relief cuts. Ever deal with moldingknives.com? They seem have to advertised profiles for relief cuts one for T/G and one for trim. I have yet to call them but it seems they can supply just about anything I might need.
I was thinking about using the jointer as the way and means of cutting the reliefs any thoughts?