Hammer K3 Winner, Grizzly G0623X, and Slider Size. Rikon?

[Steve Woolf]

After hours of internet searching I'm now convinced that a slider is the way to go, and that we are in the early stages of a trend that will have us all using them before too long. Personally, at 68 years old, I can't wait!

I registered on the Felder site and got a phone call about some deep discounts on the Hammer K3 machines, sales person emailed me some useful info and they're sending me catalogs. It was good to make the contact and learn about their aggressive marketing to exactly the likes of me -- serious hobbyist, retirement age, ready and able to buy quality for the joy of it, and adventuresome to transition to a euro style table saw.

Grizzly G0623X versus the Hammer K3 models-- no doubt that Felder/Hammer quality has got to surpass Grizzly (though I wonder whether Grizzly's quality would still satsify), but my dilemma right now is not so much about that, or even about the cost. My problem is what length sliding table to aim for. Clearly the longer ones are more useful, both for sheet goods and ripping rough lumber, but I'm not a production woodworker and I wonder whether most of the time the long table would be in my way. After all, for sheet goods, like most of us, I've typically cut them down roughly with a hand held circular saw first, then brought them to the table saw. For the amount of casework I'll be doing, I won't mind doing that if the slider is too short to cut full sheets, and I'd still enjoy all the other benefits of the slider. For ripping lumber longer than the slider, one of the videos I've seen shows a plywood sled for rips with he slider locked.

I'd appreciate any comments you-all might have on:

--Sliding table length: What are the deciding factors? What workarounds for shorter sliders? Is the Grizzly 63" enough? Is the K3 78" enough? Will I be sorry going with, say, the K3 48" version? Why will I be sorry?

--Hammer vs Grizzly: Where would a hobbyist notice the quality differences? What features does one have over the other? Is it true that the Hammer rip fence complaints have been addressed in the newest "Winner" models? Are you Grizzly owners still lusting after a "true" euro saw, or has Grizzly actually achieved that?

--Rikon sliding table saw. Happy compromise? Sad compromise? Do you, or did you, own one?

[Shiraz Balolia]

Steve - hopefully someone with an actual Grizzly G0623X saw will chime in instead of the people that make assumptions. The factory that makes this particular saw is very good and they also make some of our best bandsaws.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, relative to your question about the slider capacity, what kind of work you intend to do with it is going to affect your decision. For primary use as crosscutting you can get away with a lower capacity than you can if you intend to rip. I rip. Both sheet goods and solid stock. My slider is 8'6" and it meets my needs. The downside is that for that capacity, you need a total of 19' for slider wagon travel from end to end. I fortunately have that!!!

[Tom W Armstrong]

An important point, and one I'm trying to understand too, is whether or not the 78" K3 slider can handle a full sheet of ply. I'm going through a similar decision now and if I can't get a big enough slider in my 22x22 space for a full sheet, I might as well stick with a track saw to at least make the first few cuts, and go with a smaller slider in the end to more match my space.

[Terry Teadtke]

If so what model and what do you think of the fence?

Terry

[Richard Link]

Just a few opinions. Take this with a grain of salt since I've only had my slider for 9 months.

I have a smaller space then you do and opted to get the 9 foot sliding table on my Felder. This is really nice for ripping long boards and makes dealing with full plywood sheets easy. With some creative "angling" I was able to make the slider fit and be functional within my smaller space. I have had no regrets about getting the longer table.

I was originally concerned about that long table getting in the way but it really hasn't. Remember that this table slides, so it can be effortlessly moved around as needed. To be honest, I actually leave my big outrigger mounted all the time and just move it around when I need to to put the empty space where I need it. My outrigger is also so overbuilt that I occasionally use it as an auxiliary workbench/assembly area when I am not cutting. I just toss a hollow core door up onto the outrigger and, presto, a huge work surface that I can move around at will with one hand.

Certainly, you should do the calculations to see how such a large item will fit into your workspace. I know that some slider owners who work in a garage simply need to open one of the garage doors to accommodate the full slider travel for a full plywood sheet. Remember that you can place the machine diagonally and gain valuable space to slide. I went through the trouble of modeling the whole space in Sketchup prior to ordering my table. With that model, I was able to try 20 different positions and orientations for the sliding table (as well as several sizes of table) to assure I could create a functional setup for the larger table. This was a huge advantage, in my opinion and was well worth the effort.

As with many things, be careful about being penny wise and pound foolish with the shorter slider. You are contemplating spending a large chunk of change on the "ultimate" tablesaw. If you can develop a machine placement strategy that will accommodate the longer table, I would encourage you to go that route and not regret it later. A shorter table is going to significantly compromise some of the "slider advantages" that you are seeking. On the other hand, if other machinery or requirements make it impossible to use the longer table in your space, then you know what to do.

[Richard Link]

Just a brief follow up to show you one approach.

The attached photos show the slider positioned in my space. The second photo shows the range of motion of the large table (forward is red and backward is blue). Note that the range of motion backward is larger than forward on the Felder since the table goes completely out of the way to allow access to the sawblade, etc.

With the saw in this position, we can see that there is no conflict at all going forward. As it turns out the only conflict I end up with is with the door when the slider is pushed completely backward. As it turns out, this is no issue when cutting, even full plywood sheets. I can also access the blade easily. If I want complete access to the inner compartment, and need to get the last couple of inches of travel, I simply open the garage door briefly. For the record, haven't had that door open in 4 months with this setup...

Note that the Felder group on Yahoo has a copy of the footprint dimensions of all their machines (and probably hammer as well) with the sliders in full extension forward and backward. This was the data I used to model from. You can see, I think, how this can really help you to visualize your space constraints.

[Mark Woodmark]

I just ordered the Felder K500 Pro. I am suppose to get it in June. I looked at Grizzly, Laguna, MiniMax, Hammer, Rojek, Kufo. I was going to go with the Hammer K3 Winner Comfort, but decided to spend a couple hundred more for the Felder so I could get the X Roll table. I know some of the Lagunas are made in Asia, I wonder if this particular Grizzly is made by Scheppach. I know some of their other sliders and J/P combos are Scheppach

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I went through the same decision matrix as you are going through now about 1 & 1/2 years ago.

I was contemplating the Grizzly 10" slider at the time (can't remember the#), MM & Felder. Since I subscribe to the "buy high, sell low" theory, I ended up buying the MM at the height of the euro and paid too much. I say this bcz the exchange rate put the Felder way out of my price range. It was nearly $20K for the 500 series combo at the time. If I'd waited a few months, I would have bought the Felder for what they are selling them for now.

I ended up with a MM CU300 with the 6' slider. I second what Richard said. Don't be penny foolish when your slapping down this much money.

Yes, I can do most of what I want with the slider I have, but at the times when I need a longer one I wish I'd spent the extra thou.

Someone asked about the fence. Mine is the European style. I've read many posts by those that are not happy with it. I've never had a problem. It comes with a bar that you can install (don't have to) for extra rigidity at the tail of the fence. Alone it's not as strong as the Beismeyer, but it has much more optional functionality. With the bar in place, it doesn't deflect at all.

Overall I've been happy with the quality of the MM and, when there have been small problems, the service has been very good from them. It did take awhile to get used to the "slider" concept and working around the combo, but I've become accustom to it.

Hope that helps.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a few fairly expensive tools, mostly MiniMax/SCMI and they are a joy to work with and a point of pride in my shop.

I do the same arguing with myself over cost. My latest aquisition is a SCMI S520 with a Tersa head. It was a touch over $9k, plus the cost of a larger 3 ph converter for my shop to run it. I have a small business so it will take a long time to pay for itself but......

Each and every time I use it I am happy that I spent the money for such an awesome machine. Hard to explain really, but it makes me do better work. I would buy it again even though I could have bought a planer for 20% of the cost that would have done basically the same job. But not quite.....

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, I have a B3 Winner with the 1250mm sliding table.

The winner has the round bar guide for the fence, which is nicer than the simple fence.

I ordered mine with the following options

- CSA electrical approval
- Dado capability
- rip fence with round guide bar
- micro adjust for rip fence
- mechanical scoring unit
- cutting width 31" with additional table
- 1650mm crosscut fence extension
- tilting power feeder bracket

I would have to measure mine, however the crosscut capacity at 90 degrees is about 42 inches which is fine for my application.

As others have mentioned, get the longest slider you can accomodate.

I also have the tilting spindle shaper in my machine, is it ever great to have a sliding table/tilting spindle shaper. You should perhaps consider that instead of the K3, which is what I did.

It's my second Hammer machine, I'm very pleased with it.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. About the fence, I had a General 650 with a Biessemeyer fence before, I like the Winner fence better.

The Winner fence with the fine adjust option has a knob that when you turn it, the fence creeps along, without coming out of square like the Bies. (The Bies squares up fine when locked, it's just a PITA to adjust).

The Hammer fence also allows you to use it as a regular fence, a short fence, or a low fence, very handy.

[Tom W Armstrong]

Steve, Where are you? This is your thread... These guys have about talked me into a new K3 Winner with comfort package. Help.

Rod, I considered the B3, but they have the best deals on the K3 right now and I can wait on the shaper.

[Steve Woolf]

Thanks for asking -- I am still here, and still wondering what direction I will go. I'm talking on the phone with owners all over the country, talking to local woodworkers, looking at their machines, and looking in dealer showrooms. I will not buy a machine until I have a real physical feel for it, and until I get a real feel of how users actually use the sliding table feature, and until I have drawn the saws in scale on the floor plan of my shop to see how it will change my layout and work flow.

Tom, my understanding is that while it's very nice to rip 8' sheets, one can be quite happy with a slider that can only cross cut the full sheet.

I am still intrigued by the Rikon, having talked with two satisfied owners. I would have to chop off some of the rip fence guide bars to make it work in my space. The price is such that if I end up hating it, I can sell it at a relatively small loss. My guess is that I would love it and not think about what I am missing not having the slider right next to the blade, and not having a scoring blade and riving knife.

One user said he can have 3 different setups at the same time on his 10' slider.

One asked, how many sheets will you cut in a year -- 100? or 10? I said more like 10. He said I could be happy with a standard table saw, especially the Sawstop for its safety feature. My reaction in a showroom was that I loved the look and feel of the Unisaw. So that puts me back to considering a slider length of exactly zero. Yes, I am still considering that option -- to stay with the familiar, get the best cabinet saw, dont change my basic work habits, don't upset the configuration of my small shop, dont crowd it with a mongo immovable euro slider, that its just beyond what I should have for the scale of work I will do, and that will snowball me into more expensive tooling and upgrading all my other machines.

But the sliding table urge persists and the research goes on, and I will take my time with it until all my unanswered questions are resolved by the irrational decision to make the move. The actual answers will come only after I start using my new machine, whatever that turns out to be.

My question about Grizzly -- Where are you, Grizzly slider owners?

Steve

[Shiraz Balolia]

My question about Grizzly -- Where are you, Grizzly slider owners?

Steve

It is my understanding that you asked about a very specific model - G0623X, but are looking at various sizes of other brands. We carry 8 different models. All except one are made in Taiwan. The exception is the G0674 that is made in Germany and is really a fantastic deal at $7995.00.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-3...able-Saw/G0674

It is possible that you will get more responses if you expanded your request to other Grizzly sliders.

[Steve Woolf]

Shiraz, will Grizzly provide contacts where customers can talk to owners and view Grizzly machines in their local area?