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Thread: Festool CT22-E Shop Vac Eval.....PICS

  1. #31
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    Christian, just based on what I read on the Festool website, I was concerned that the Festool hoses and accessories were entirely proprietary and not compatible with anything around. I think in this case it's different from the Metabo guide rail/Bosch router combo you mention. Pretty much all the locally available shop vacuums (I'm guessing this is true across the U.S., but I haven't been in all borgs) and their accessories are compatible within either the 1.25" or 2.5" domains. In other words, if I go buy a ShopVac brand vac with a 2.5" outlet, at any time if I need a particular hose or accessory for it, I could run to Sears and get a Craftsman 2.5" hose or accessory. Insert whatever brands you like for the ShopVac and Craftsman (those are two of the biggest sellers, I believe). I was just concerned because of the dimensions listed online (22mm, 27mm, etc.) for Festool, that they weren't playing the same game. Others have answered that question that Festool accessories are indeed compatible without a Rube Goldberg string of adapters.

    As for the remark about the 120V/U.S. design, I was pointing out that where you are in Europe, 220V is the standard, no? So my though is that the U.S. market would get a different design from Festool anyway, why not tailor it a little more closely to the U.S. market? After all, Japanese automakers don't sell us very many right-hand drive cars (only in very rare exceptions), though that's the standard on their islands. In other words, they could have made the dust port on the tools themselves compatible with commonly available hoses in the U.S., without the need for their proprietary grommet.

    Dennis, I know you were reviewing "just the vac" and its accessories, but I was trying to flesh out "value" and how it would commonly be used in a shop or with a pro (I would assume these are the bulk of the market Festool is targeting). I think these are both important considerations in the review of a tool, otherwise someone may buy based on a positive review that doesn't really offer applicability to real-world use, but be sorely disappointed when they find they can't hook it up to anything without a gazillion different adapters, because no real "as-it-would-be-used" test was performed.

    John, you sound like you're saying "you get what you pay for." I've heard that a million times, and I'm not convinced it's universally true (I can't discuss everywhere it's not true, because we don't do politics or public education here ) In the end, the Festool is a motor, canister, bag and filter, much like a ShopVac. Perhaps German engineering has tightened the tolerances, and delivered a longer-lasting motor, but the question remains whether that is worth the 300% extra. We've certainly heard many folks talk about getting 10, 15, even 20 years out of their old Craftsmans, so by the time 40 years rolls around, how many Festools will have been worn out (or 70 years in the case of Dennis' $59 ShopVac, mine was $100, but I'll bet it's a little bigger).

    My, I have stirred quite the pot on this one..."Hey, guys, check out that SawMill Creek--those guys get passionate about their SHOP VACUUMS there!!" I just always get concerned when I read a review that is real heavy on first impressions and positives, has very few negatives, and doesn't compare the item quantitatively to what else is available (for perspective purposes).
    Jason

    "Don't get stuck on stupid." --Lt. Gen. Russel Honore


  2. #32
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    Not to stick my neck out (for fear of getting my head chopped off), but there are a few other considerations that are relevant to the discussion. First, the Festool has features (such as the auto-start, auto-stop feature) that simply aren't available on your basic Shop Vac. A Porter-Cable vacuum with similar features costs close to $300 (if memory serves). Further, a Fein vacuum, which is also manufactured in Europe, is priced well above that level. That feature either is or isn't important, but clearly adds to the cost. Second, and perhaps more important, you need to consider the effect the weak dollar has had on prices of imported goods (including tools). A few years ago when I was in France, the Dollar to Euro exchange rate was $.83 to E1.00. Now I think it is around $1.21 to E1.00. Combined with shipping costs, that means that a European manufactured tool is going to cost approximately 30% more than it would have a few years ago (assuming prices tracked the exchange rates). I'll bet our Austrian friend Christian can buy Festools in Austria far cheaper than we can here. So it's not just a premium tool, we're also the victim of changing exchange rates.

    I think Jason raises some valid points and shouldn't be pillloried for asking some pretty pertinent questions. I for one would want to be able to connect my vacuum to all of my handheld tools without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

    Just my $0.02.

    Jack

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hogoboom
    I'll bet our Austrian friend Christian can buy Festools in Austria far cheaper than we can here. So it's not just a premium tool, we're also the victim of changing exchange rates.

    I think Jason raises some valid points and shouldn't be pillloried for asking some pretty pertinent questions. I for one would want to be able to connect my vacuum to all of my handheld tools without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

    Just my $0.02.

    Jack
    I believe Christian feels we have a better pricing structure, even though we logically should not. Care to comment, Chris?

    Adapting hoses to tools is a constant complaint. I think Festool has at least done a pretty good job of designing their vac to work with their tools. It seems to the casual observer that most everyone else,up to the present, has treated vac connections as an afterthought. There are no standards, even within a given brand, so I think expecting someone from across the pond to be able to solve the universality of hook-ups challenge is a reach, especially when no one else has done it.

    Jason, The Festool hoses are pretty well-made, as well as being available in 3 sizes. It should take alot to damage one beyond the point where it couldn't be duct-taped for a week or so. The 27mm works well with the ROS's because it is lighter and provides enough draw for that type of work. Less tiring; who want to drag a 2.5 inch hose back and forth while finsh sanding? The power planer will choke that hose but works well with the next larger size, but is still not too restrictive. I don't have the 50mm hose so I cannot comment on that. Perhaps Dennis can investigate any benefits in 'optimizing' the hose size to specific applications. BTW, I don't believe Dennis has mentioned the anti-static feature yet, another unique feature.

    $.02 more

    Greg

  4. #34
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    OK....

    The hose is metal wire wrapped for anti-static provisions.

    My standard shop-vac hoses will connect to the dust extractor without a single adapter.

    Adjusting the speed of the suction while connnected to a sander does need to be turned down to prevent the sander from "sticking".

    To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here. A review is one persons view of a tool and how well or pitiful it works. I honestly tried to pick these tools to pieces by being "super picky" about every little aspect that could possibly be covered by someone that isn't getting paid to do this, by someone that has to do this at their own time and expense. I always end a review that what can I find "wrong" with this tool. It is well thought out and non-attacking for the forum members as well as the vendor of the tools. If a review can't be done without it becoming a long thread of bickering.....This case is now considered....Closed.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock
    To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here. A review is one persons view of a tool and how well or pitiful it works. I honestly tried to pick these tools to pieces by being "super picky" about every little aspect that could possibly be covered by someone that isn't getting paid to do this, by someone that has to do this at their own time and expense. I always end a review that what can I find "wrong" with this tool. It is well thought out and non-attacking for the forum members as well as the vendor of the tools. If a review can't be done without it becoming a long thread of bickering.....This case is now considered....Closed.
    Dennis, I still stand behind my original comments and feel as though you've done an excellent job with the review, pictures and write-up! Though I am saddened by the fact that you do not want to do anymore reviews, I don't blame you! As I see it, you offered up an *OBJECTIVE* review of the product, really no different than reviews on many other sites, magazines or other media. Yes, I am a Festool owner. No, I do not own one of their vacs. Did I find your review helpful in helping me get a better "feel" for the vac? You bet! As for a few of the "other" posts, I don't understand it. When people post gloats AND reviews on a new MM or Laguna or Powermatic this or that, the same doesn't happen, though a LOT more $$ is involved. When a Ford owner (Steve C. ) clearly states his allegiance to that company, we don't have another 30 Chevy guys blowing him to pieces for it! I just don't get it. Anyhow, thanks much for your review (this and past ones) and, I for one, will miss them.
    Cheers,
    John K. Miliunas

    Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
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  6. #36
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    Dennis,
    What is the capacity of those vacs? They look small in the pics I have seen. If there is one thing I hate it is emptying my vac, so the more it holds and the less often I have to empty it, the better.

  7. #37
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    Dennis,

    I don't think you should give up. Your review provided a lot of useful information to those of us who haven't gotten the chance to use these tools and to evaluate them. I think the "discussion" that has resulted has had nothing to do with your review and a lot to do with whether people think the features you highlighted are worth the premium price. I don't think anyone is taking issue with your thoughts and comments. I certainly don't. Jim Becker did the same thing a week or so ago. We need you guys in there showing us what's out there. Don't quit!!!

    Jack

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock
    OK....
    ...
    To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here.
    ...
    I am sorry that you feel that way Dennis. The review was good and I believe that the follow-up just indicates that people are interested in the topic. No follow-up would have indicated no interest. I have re-read the follow-up commnets, including those contributed by you, and I believe that they enhance your initial review (they certainly do not appear to be bickering to me).

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carole Valentine
    Dennis,
    What is the capacity of those vacs? They look small in the pics I have seen. If there is one thing I hate it is emptying my vac, so the more it holds and the less often I have to empty it, the better.
    Carole, I note that Dennis is not currently "on-line", so I thought I'd jump in with this: You can find all the specs on all three Festool vacs at:
    http://festool.safeshopper.com/421/cat421.htm?293

    I agree: I truly HATE emptying vacs and dust collector units!
    Cheers,
    John K. Miliunas

    Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
    60 grit is a turning tool, ain't it?
    SMC is totally supported by volunteers and your generosity! Please help if you can!
    Looking for something for nothing? Check here!

  10. #40
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    I've got the 150/3 and I have it hooked to my mini-fein. I bought the adapter from Fein and it works just fine. Would I love to have the Festool vac over the Fein vac? Sure, but it was about $100 difference. I've not used them side by side, so there is no way I could tell the difference. I do have the Ridgid vac and it is so much louder and I hate it and find myself using the Fein more and more. They all do the same thing, but in some cases better and also quieter. It comes down to $$$'s vs. value.

    It's the same argument for delta vs griszzly vs. jet, etc.

    Now as far a real gripe on fit, try finding a fitting to work directly with the Delta twin laser miter.... their suppose to be a USA company and can't figure out that people want dust collection. Point is, at least with the various vacs you can find (usually) a fitting or hose to match with most things (delta CMS excluded). As far as performance and noise level, it's a trade off to $$$$'s.
    Scott C. in KC
    Befco Designs

  11. #41
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    It all boils down to this:

    If Festool "tools" were the same price or a "little bit" more than the common BB tools, then nobody says a thing. You up the price considerably, and the world flies apart.

    I did my best to pick this tool apart. But when you find a good tool and it surprises you that you "have to look really hard" to find anything wrong with it? I would say that THAT my friend is an excellent tool.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pellow
    I am sorry that you feel that way Dennis. The review was good and I believe that the follow-up just indicates that people are interested in the topic. No follow-up would have indicated no interest. I have re-read the follow-up commnets, including those contributed by you, and I believe that they enhance your initial review (they certainly do not appear to be bickering to me).
    I agree with Frank. Nice review and an active followup mean you were indeed doing a service to the readers.

    Jay
    Jay St. Peter

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock
    It all boils down to this:

    If Festool "tools" were the same price or a "little bit" more than the common BB tools, then nobody says a thing. You up the price considerably, and the world flies apart.

    I did my best to pick this tool apart. But when you find a good tool and it surprises you that you "have to look really hard" to find anything wrong with it? I would say that THAT my friend is an excellent tool.
    Agreed. The other thing I can say about my Festool experience so far (the ATF55) is that the more I use it, the more I like it. I think Jasons earlier comment about being "giddy" about the new tool didn't ring true with me. I wasn't totally sold on it early on, but now I am.

    Jay
    Jay St. Peter

  14. #44
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    Dennis,

    Please don't feel that your efforts are unappreciated. I was very interested to see if your experiences and conclusions coincided with my own. They did, which is reassuring, since you have much more overall WWing experience than I do.

    John has identified the inevitable common denominator with all Festool discussions: Price. What your review addresses is value and that is a different animal. It is up to the rest of us to determine the level to which we value various performance differences. Your review and the subsequent discussions, even with the tangents they take, help to clarify choices for all of us. Thanks for the efforts.
    Greg

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayStPeter
    Agreed. The other thing I can say about my Festool experience so far (the ATF55) is that the more I use it, the more I like it. I think Jasons earlier comment about being "giddy" about the new tool didn't ring true with me. I wasn't totally sold on it early on, but now I am.

    Jay
    I am reviewing the ATF55 now.....I actually have it ready to post....I'm just not so sure I want to any more. I don't like SMC having fires to stomp out.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

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