Hello and some questions concerning Laser, wood and china cheapness....

[todd mckechnie]

Hello everyone ! I found this forum doing research into possibly buying a small co2 laser engraver ( china $1500 machine ) to engrave wood grips for my business.

So a few things.

1 These aren't grips that are machined in the thousands daily. I am going to say on a scale maybe 20 sets a month ( smooth no design or checkering, so I dont know if they will be more popular or less popular with the checkering ), maybe more. I just started releasing these a few months ago.

2 I use exotic woods, Coco Bolo, Ebony, Bocote, Bubinga etc for the grips.

3 I would like to checker the grips and add a logo or design possibly. ( hence the reason for me to think of having my own laser rather then farm out, to cut the cost of having single onesy projects done ).

4 I am checking into farming it out to a few locals right now. So I havent gotten solid pricing quotes back yet to figure what I am looking at.

5 I machine these out via cnc machines I own. I know I could engrave them with the CNC machine , but I am thinking the laser would be more crisp and faster. I am exploring doing it on my cnc machines as well.

6 Budget. Like everyone I have some money I can spend, but obviously dont want to spend it in a large amount if its more feasible to farm it out. I understand one less machine to maintain, one less program to figure out, one less headache when it doesnt work right. But I like the freedom to do it myself as well.

So this is what I have.



Here is the side view profile ( dim's arent for mine but similar enough to work with ).





I would like to checker them in simple checker such as above, or do something more with adding logos or names to them and stipling to them.



I have no Corel experience. But have a very good customer that is a vinyl graphics company and does work with Corel and Photo Shop Illustrator , so I have someone that can work with me on that and understands the usage ( albeit by plotters ).

So my question is something like this a feasible thing to get my feet wet and experiment with this new area ? I cant afford a Epilog or more expensive unit right now. But if this takes off then its something I might consider and look at in the future.

This wont be used for much else then the grips. I am sure I ll toss a odd item or two up there, but its not that I am starting a company with this laser, I would only be using it to further a small area of the company and experiment to see if its worth while.

I did a search on here and most of the posts I saw where people contemplating starting a business with something like this or trying to get a business to "boom" thinking the laser will be the key. I am not looking at it that way. Hence the reason I dont want to spend $35,000 on a Epilog. I am heading this small area of the company into a very demanding market. Will it be demanding for me enough to make it worth my while, well thats what I am testing now and so far its going decently. Its not making drop everything else in the company, and I never expected it to. But it helps to expand what we already offer.

So bottom line, $1500 laser engraver off ebay worthwhile to test out a new area, or am I just throwing money out the window with it.

Sorry for the long first post .....

[Dan Hintz]

If all you want is a simple crosshatch pattern, you may be okay with a low-end Chinese machine. If you're interested in a true 3D check pattern, you may run into more difficulties... contact James Jaragosky (if he doesn't see this thread and reply himself), as he has arguably had the most experience with the Chinese machines. The software interface for the cheap machines leaves a lot to be desired, and 3D can be difficult to master for even US-made machines that specifically support it in their drivers.

[Richard Rumancik]

Todd

Your handles look very nice. I take it that you did the shape and had someone else do the detailed engraving by CNC?

You said: "I machine these out via cnc machines I own. I know I could engrave them with the CNC machine , but I am thinking the laser would be more crisp and faster. I am exploring doing it on my cnc machines as well."

Some comments: the thicker handles will be challenging to laser as the contour of the parts will cause the laser to go out of focus. The solution might be to use a longer focal length to get more depth-of-field, but you will loose detail on the extremes of height. The design will still "fade" at the edges.

Since you have CNC experience, I would suggest you stay with the CNC mill/router method. Even if it meant another small tabletop machine to do these. No, I realize you won't get that for $1500 but I think the cheap laser will end up being a headache for you. What program do you currently use on your mill/router? This looks like a perfect application for V-carve. (Yes, more money.)

If you stay with CNC everything will be in your control. Are you prepared to write off the mistakes of your laser subcontactor?

Also think about the machining sequence. For lasering, they should have a finish coat on them to avoid smoke damage. But then they will probably need to be recoated after lasering. If you CNC the shape and the texture pattern, you can do all the finishing in one shot.

If your objectives are "crisper and faster" I don't know if the laser will achive either. The laser is inherently a 2D machine. Yes, you can do 3D but I don't know if you want to go there. Your designs are in my opinion closer to 3D and I think you would be better having 3D capability using a CNC mill or router than a laser.

Since your customers are fussy, I don't think you will be able to pass on less than perfect work. If I were you, I'd stay with CNC for this and put my $1500 towards new equipment and software which you are familiar with.

[Pete Simmons]

I do grips with a laser and except for simple initials or logos I wish I had a CNC machine.

I would think the CNC would do cross hatch much better than a laser.

My $0.02 is 3D on a laser is a joke.

[todd mckechnie]

You know I am glad that I am getting some honest opinions on this. My problem with my current machine is I am limited to 10,000 rpm. I am not a wood working guy , so this grip area is something that I figured a laser might work better with.

But your right, if I put $1500 into more / better tooling, I could just do it all on the cnc right now. Thus controlling my output with something I am already familiar with.

Interesting opinions and I greatly appreciate the ideas.

Also looking at the grips, I see that alot of them are probably cnc machined instead of laser because looking at the top grip ( lighter color ) wasnt lasered, it was definitely machined.

Hmm..... one more thing for me to add to the equation.....

Thanks guys.

[Andy Joe]

I think i actually have that gone pictured there. Is it a 380? Anyways i have made a couple grips my self and i found that if all u want to do is etch a image or do the dimiond hatch grip in them, then the laser works fine. I have a gaint square pattern of that dimond hatch. I just lay a drawing of the handle out over the top of it then mask off what i dont want and where and then run it. On my 380 it took about 10 mins to run both handles at the same time. I dont have a digital camera to show u the results but i have used it for some custom gun worker shops in my town and they were pleased with the result. I also used it to my grips for a pistol grip shifter on a john deere pull tractor. I made the whole grip out of a greenish wood(dont recall name) and put the pattern and logo in them. People at the track couldnt belive they werent factory and they were trying to figure out what tractor i stole them off of for weeks till i showed them how they were made. If u end up with the machine let me know and i will send u that pattern i use to get u started.

[David Fairfield]

You can easily use the laser like a CNC micro-router, but in order to copy the type of surface patterns you show in your Sig-Sauer samples accurately, you are probably looking at 3d lasering. So the issues for you, besides cost, are engraving quality and learning how to use the graphics software to make graphics for 3d patterns.

There's a learning curve on 3d lasering and, as far as I know, no guide book to teach you how to do it. It took me a heck of a lot of trial and error figuring out how to work with greyscales and materials and settings to get decent results in 3d. Granted, I'm not a graphics artist or a rocket scientist. But I wouldn't call it plug-n-play.

I'd also want to be sure the laser I'm getting can get extremely fine engraving quality. Because if your completed work shows rasters and lines, its going to look cheezy.

I'd say stick with what you know, or farm it out to somebody who's already invested the time and cash in lasering. It pays to specialize.

Dave

[David Fairfield]

My $0.02 is 3D on a laser is a joke.

I thought so too, but it can be done beautifully.

[James Stokes]

One more thing, On the darker woods the laser engraving is not going to show up well. Also with the harder woods like Ebony it takes a very powerfull laser to get any depth. I have a hundred watt laser and can not cut a piece of 3/16 ebony all the way through. With any of the 35 or 40 watt machines you will not be happy.

[todd mckechnie]

Thanks guys. I already cad out a few ideas, but found a flaw in my original cad. So I am fixing it.

But here is a rough idea I am working on.



I am going to swap the curve around though and go with it backwards I think.

Here I just messed around a little.

[Martin Boekers]

Here something from an Epilog site you might want to check out to see some ideas what can be done.

http://www.epiloglaser.com/gun_stock_engraving.htm


also you may want to find someone here that has a similar laser (or contact the manufacturer) and have them do some samples on some of your stocks. That way you can get a test in your hands to see it.


Marty

[Norberto Coutinho]

Todd
Do a search on ebay
1 - for LASER ENGRAVER.... have a seller with a laser engraver that run under CNC software.
2 - for LASER ENGRAVING .... have another seller with another laser engraving machine taht run too under CNC software.
I am in doubt if I can post the links here.... but is easy to find them on ebay.... both machines in 2000/1500 US dollar... both sellers in US.

[Dan Hintz]

Norberto,

The machines that run with CNC software are used mainly for vector cutting... Todd needs 3D rastering capabilities if he intends to go forward with using the laser for making his patterns.

[Dan Hintz]

Hmmm, just received an unsolicited email from NIC Industries about gun coatings and such... I've never even hear of them, so I hope they're not trolling here for email addresses.

[todd mckechnie]

I looked at the Epilog setup awhile ago. Just too much money for me to outlay up front for just trying out something. I would rather throw away $1500 on something then the Epilog money.

Dan,
I do alot with Cerakote. I would be very surprised that they would do something like that. Forward the email to me if you don't mind and I ll talk to them about it and see what they say. I would be very bummed if that is the case.

guns@customizedcreationz.com

Thanks everyone
Todd