Blowing fuses

[Alan Schaffter]

Time to dig out the step ladder.

[Roger Frazee]

Time to dig out the step ladder.

There's always a pessimist in the crowd.....

[John Coloccia]

I'm more interested in the wire nut that's burned through. Okay, sure it may have happened when the cap died, but I think there's a decent chance you had a poor connection there to begin with. A high impedance connection would explain the slow startup performance, and would also explain why the wire nut/wires are charred.

Personally, I'd replace the cap, check and redo all the connections in the motor box, and go from there. If the performance is still poor, it might be time to get a friend who knows what he's doing and start probing around to see where it's going wrong.

[Jim O'Dell]

You also mentioned something about some charred wiring. Make sure you get that taken care of also.

As a side note to redoing all your connections. I second that. I was this close ( finger and thumb about 1/8" apart) from starting my CV for the first time when a little voice said to go back through the wiring at the motor first. Glad I did. I found a wire missing that was shown in the schematic. I finally found it....under the wiring housing grounded to the frame of the motor. Came that way from the factory. Don't know what would have happened if I had turned it on that way, but I'm sure it would not have been pretty. Now I don't think that is your troubles, but just make sure you have all the wires identified and in the proper place! Jim.

[Roger Frazee]

I have to agree with John that this whole thing sounds like one of those obscure wiring connections that was bad that went unnoticed. Your breaker never sees this sort of connection and will not trip. Unfortunately it is hard to troubleshoot over the internet. I can walk you through ohming out the windings in case there is damage there but bottom line is if you repair the burned wiring and replace the capacitor it's either going to start correctly or not and if a winding burned through your SOL.

Sounds like the motor got awfully hot also but maybe not that part of the motor that would trip the overload. I think it is a bad connection coupled with the fast cycling that caused the failure. The motor windings likely never got hot enough to trip the overload. The breaker should have opened if the current stayed up around locked rotor amps that long. What size is it...? A double 30 is probably what you have. It didn't so this lends more favor to Johns suspicion of a bad connection in a wirenut..

With your new disconnect so close to the motor I would recommend when you rewire or change out the motor to run stranded from the disconnect to the motor in armored flex conduit or what some call a whip motor connection.. You can get this with the stranded wires already in it or put your own thhn stranded into the flex. You just need a couple box flex connectors for the disconnect and motor. This will give you stranded only in the wiring peckerhead of the motor and will improve your terminations there if using wirenuts. Ideal 'twisters' or buchanon B-Caps in my opinion are the best wirenuts on the market. The GB Hex-loc is highly recommended by many electricians.

The wiring diagram as you know is on the motor namplate or on the wiring peckerhead cover.

So when you rewire be sure you have P1 connected to line (L1). That is all that will be connected to that line wire for a straight 230 volt motor like you have. This puts the manual thermal overload into the circuit. I'm not sure if the motor can be wired for 2 rotation directions (CW and CCW) so it has to be wired for the correct rotation. I can tell you the rest of the connections if you want to verify them. But as John said it is highly likely if the connections were correct to begin with... and I would say they were.. other than possibly rotation.. otherwise the motor would have smoked at the git go... you probably had a loose connection at the wire nut as John thinks and the fast cycling didn't help things.. This is not all that uncommon if you brought solid #10 into the peckerhead of the motor and connected it to stranded in wire nuts. If it was prewired then maybe the factory messed up a connection. Anyway if you are connecting stranded to solid in a wire nut let the standed be about 1/8 to 3/16" longer than than the solid on the stripped ends. You get a better bite in the wire nut that way and it won't ball up inside the wirenut because the wire spring grabs the stranded first and holds it into the top of the wirenut.

After you terminate the wires give them a reasonable tug to make sure they are secure.

Now one more thing usually the motor lead wires are small and very flexible.... connecting 10 solid to them is a PITA. Not telling you what to do but if it were me I'd deviate from the NEC a bit and run #12 thhn solid or stranded to the motor from the disconnect... I will explain. If the manufacturer explicity states #10 then I suppose you will have to do that. You have #10 all the way to the disconnect so assuming good voltage you have just over 1% VD under load at the disconnect location. IMO #12 awg thhn (not romex) will carry all the amperage this motor will ever need. And yes for motors you can have a bigger breaker than 20 amps on #12 thhn wire. The breaker is to hold the inrush at start up.. the wire is to carry the amperage of the load... the motor has overload protection. Your fla is 20.8 amps for this motor. THHN #12 copper has an ampacity of 25 amps sooo..I dont see any issue and your life will be easier at the motor terminations.

Just trying to make sure the next time around you have good connections.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding the termination method at the motor but sounds like wirenuts connecting motor leads to the supply wires.

[Leigh Betsch]

I talked with Ed at Clear Vue today. He's going to send me a new capacitor. He doesn't think that cycling the motor caused the problem. When they balance fans they cycle a motor on and off 15 times in 30 minutes. He also said that he hasn't heard of anyone else having problems due to excessive cycling. He thinks it might just be a bad cap from the git go. I guess I'll give it a whirl and hope it works so I don't have to pull the motor out. I did have it wired with THHN 10 ga solid wire inside a seal tight conduit. I replaced the wire from the relay to and motor with THHN 10ga stranded (just couldn't get my self to use 12ga). L1 to P1; L2 to T4 and T8; T1 T5 and P3 wired together, just like Lesson says for CW rotation. So far it looks like a bad connection or a bad capacitor started this all. Now I just have to wait for the new cap and keep my fingers crossed that the motor is ok.
I think I'll get all my plane blades and chisels sharpened this weekend.

[Roger Frazee]

I hope that is all it turns out to be....keeping my fingers crossed.

NO big deal on the #10 vs #12 I figured it would make you uneasy after what you have been through....

Hey just thought I would show you how things are going on with your motor windings and start and run capacitors.

When you look a the drawing below just visualize a centrifugal switch opening the circuit between the t6 and t9 lead at about 80% rated motor speed. this drops out the start circuit and winding and the run winding stays in the circuit. The start winding is still used but at the lower capacitance of the run capacitor.

Drawing came off of the leeson site for your motor and I just drew the connections in...

Thought you would find it of interest.

You have the connections correct by the way .... for clockwise rotation.

I sure hope this has a happy ending .....

[Alan Schaffter]

You have the connections correct by the way .... for clockwise rotation.

Remember, rotation is determined by looking at the shaft end of the motor with the shaft facing you.

[Roger Frazee]

Remember, rotation is determined by looking at the shaft end of the motor with the shaft facing you.

Yes.. good catch .. the drawing is from the switch end . I placed an arrow on the drawing to show the rotation of the shaft.

Also in my hurry to try to make the drawing what I thought would be more simple I placed the centrifugal switch on T8 which took the start winding out of the circuit of the run capacitor. The start winding never really completely deenergizes it just moves from the higher rating of the start capacitor to the lower rating of the run capacitor. This improves the efficiency of the motor.

The drawing has been corrected

Sorry for that skip in my brain

[Leigh Betsch]

If you guys aren't careful I might start to understand this stuff!

[Roger Frazee]

If you guys aren't careful I might start to understand this stuff!

Yeah.. I know.... I'm prone to give more information than is needed but just think you can see how to ohm out your motor now....

That's a nice shot of pheasants in your avatar... can't tell what kind of dog you have though....


I traveled to Winner, SD for many years and had some wonderful hunts and great hospitality. We hunted private ground with friends from the area never got into the pay to hunt thing. boy have you guys got a lot of pheasants. I heard it was almost hard to believe back in the 50's. Seem I remember being told you could shoot 7 birds in those days roosters or hens.

[Leigh Betsch]

I really do appreciate all the help and explanations. Electricity is a whole lot more than black to black white to white, it one of the things I need the most help with.
Deutsch Drahthaars. He's may male, born just outside of Berlin. I have two, one male one female.
In the Winner area it's pretty common to see 1000 birds in a day. Not nearly that good around here though. There was a proposal to open the limit to 5 rosters per day in December because not enough birds have been harvested this year. The proposal was turned down though, limit is 3 but that's ok with me. Now the weather has tanked so only the die hard hunters will be out.

[Leigh Betsch]

I installed a new capacitor this morning. The unit fired up once but when I shut it down it kinda ground to a stop and wouldn't go again. I could get the fan to turn by hand but it was never really free. So I pulled the motor out. It really wasn't too bad to get it out since I could get at it from the top. So I figured I'd tear into it. I hated to since it's brand new and covered under warranty but I also tired of breathing dust. I pulled the end cap off and found that the end of one of the springs on the centrifugal switch was broken and the spring was laying inside the end cap. I called the local Leesson repair shop (yes someone was there on a Saturday morning!). He didn't have a spring or a new switch but he said to just make a hook out of the last spring winding and use it. On Monday he will order me a new switch, under warranty. I also found the broken end had wedged under the armature, and put a nice groove in the armature also. I put it all back together and she runs just fine.
So my question is "Is the grooved armature anything to worry about?"
It's just a small groove maybe .04 wide and 3 or 4 inches around the armature. I could pull the motor out again and take it into the repair shop on Monday and see if I could get the motor or armature replaced under warranty. I'm thinking this has been the problem all along with the capacitor and the wire nut burning up. I still don't know why the breaker never tripped though.

[Alan Schaffter]

Looks like problem #2 in my list.

Scratch shouldn't be a problem, but without seeing I can't say. Ask the repair shop what they think.

[Roger Frazee]

Looks like Alan gets the cigar and you got the step ladder...

I agree though small scratch should be nothing to worry about.


Jeez ... talk about having something goofy happen to your new motor...