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Thread: Dust Col. Adapters: what works? 4" to 2-1/4 OD or 2-1/4 OD

  1. #16
    In my case, having just completed the PVC run, I will not be making any changes immediately. If there was a way to cut out a 6" x 4" wye, and replace it with a 6"x 6" wye, and run a 6" flex hose for the (future) drum sander, I would do it. However, since my shop is so small, I literally have back-to-back-to-back fittings. To go up the wall where the dust collector sits, across one wall (under a window) up to the ceiling (abutting a soffit covering the house's HVAC ducting), and then take a 90 turn down the other wall, I have a 45, 45, wye, wye, 45, 45, 45, 45, wye all connected with just enough 6" sewer pipe to glue them together. I can't remove and replace any one piece, so I literally would have to start over with the PVC to get 6" wyes in-place. The cost difference would really only have been in purchasing 6" flex hose down to the machines, and probably some adapters to drop from 6" to the machine port sizes. So, like I said, I'm a bit pissed off that I didn't spend more time on Penz's site or ask a few more questions. Then again, I wonder if the Grizzly G0548Z, with its supposed 1700CFM max and 10" static pressure max would really have moved enough air once the 1 micron filter canister was micro-clogged with real-world dust. If that unit, at its "doable" price point, is honestly not up to the task, then once again, I would be stuck collecting most of the dust and only a percentage of the finest particles.

    I think what Bill is trying to tell me is that I won't see any dust. I think what Alan is trying to say is to underscore Bill Penz's words, and make me realize that I could have done better with larger ducting, and that there will still be invisible dust particles in the air. And, at this point in the life of my wallet, that means either scrounging for a fan, buying a pleated/pocket filter and some pre-filters and build an air cleaner, or start saving up for a commercial air cleaner unit. I wonder if this cheap one at Grizzly is a waste of money: http://www.grizzly.com/products/g5955

    Dennis

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Leahy View Post
    ... I think what Bill is trying to tell me is that I won't see any dust. I think what Alan is trying to say is to underscore Bill Penz's words, and make me realize that I could have done better with larger ducting, and that there will still be invisible dust particles in the air. ...
    Alan has been quoting Pentz's site almost verbatim - nothing wrong with that. There are good points about what both of them are saying but there's also something to be considered in real life situations. Experiences of other woodworkers in their shops should carry as much or more weight than speaking to the pure engineering aspects of a DC system.

    In my case, I get excellent collection from the 4" port at the bottom of my tablesaw cabinet. I've added collection above the blade as well. There is no cloud of dust around the saw. Now, when I ran duct to my tablesaw, I took 6" to a 6-5-4 wye under the bench behind the saw. The 5" side runs to a 5" blast gate only a few inches away from the 4" port on the saw. I did this so that, at some point, I can increase the port size on the saw. That modification has taken a back seat to everything else because I don't have the "cloud of dust" surrounding my saw.

    For my miter saw, I have a 5" duct off a wye on the 6" main. It feeds to a 5" blast gate and 5" pipe runs to the bottom of my MS dust containment box. I stayed with 5" in this case because the side of the box is MDF that I could cut out easily. I can tell no difference in dust containment between having the 5" hard duct and a 4" flex that I had run to the containment box originally. When I cut a piece of MDF without the DC on, there's a cloud of very fine dust billowing out of the upper portion of the containment box and drifting around the room. With either the original 4" or the 5" I now have running to the box, the fines are drawn into the box and DC pipe immediately.

    My system allows me to have multiple ports on a branch open simultaneously. Quite often, I'll have the MS and TS gates open as I work between them. I see no appreciable reduction in dust control in that situation.

    You can see my overall duct system (as approved by Oneida) as well as certain details on my website by clicking on my name above, then clicking into my site.
    Last edited by Bill Arnold; 12-07-2009 at 1:21 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
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  3. #18
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    Just FWIW, the ports you are talking about are shop vac ports. A standard small end of the shop vac will slip into that 2-1/4" ID hole and friction fit.

    Reducing from 6" to 4" down to 2.5" is not particularly effective. I've tried it, the results were UGLY...

    For the shop vac port equipped machines, either upgrade your ports to 4" at least, or use a shop vac with a separator like a Thien or a Dust Deputy and a HEPA filter...
    Trying to follow the example of the master...

  4. #19
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    Dennis,

    I hope I didn't read in your post that you glued your PCV duct/fittings together?!?!?!? While it won't hurt operation, you are stuck with your layout and will need to cut it apart and discarding fittings if you make a change. For future reference friction fit is fine and pretty airtight, but if you want to ensure that, apply a SMALL bead of pure SILICONE (not latex) caulk to the OUTSIDE of the joint AFTER it is together. This seals it up tightly, yet allows the fittings to be pulled apart later. You can easily rub your fingers over the silicone to remove it. As much thought and design effort I put into my system I have had to reconfigure portions of it over time- following the above recommendation allowed my to do it easily and reuse most of my materials.

    I don't remember who said they had a 4" port on their table saw, but if it is an attached port plate, remove it and make your own. Below is a pic of the 6" port I made for my tablesaw cabinet from MDF and 1/2 of a PVC fitting. It attaches with screws so the only machine mod was to drill two screw holes. Rather than buy a 4" plastic aftermarket port I did something similar to my jointer so it would also have a 6" port. I have an overblade pickup on my TS too.



    6" port on a jointer (also has the prototype of my autogate)





    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 12-07-2009 at 4:20 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    ... I don't remember who said they had a 4" port on their table saw, but if it is an attached port plate, remove it and make your own. ...
    My Jet tablesaw has a 4" port as do most tablesaws I've seen. On my Jet, there is a 4" flange screwed to the cabinet over a 4" hole. What I had planned to do is remove the 4" flange and cut a rectangular opening to accommodate a straight boot between the blast gate and cabinet. A 5" round to 8"x3.25" boot will fit in the space pretty well. My biggest problem at this point is two-fold: 1) My current arrangement is working and 2) at my age crawling around on the floor under my extension tables isn't all that attractive!

    One other thing to consider with dust/chip collection on the tablesaw is its internal design. My Jet has a steel plate sitting at an angle from the upper right side of the cabinet to lower left to aid in getting chips to the port. Most of the heavier material slides down the plate but some remains. Adding a steeper plate would help the process - another back burner project!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hostetler View Post
    ... Reducing from 6" to 4" down to 2.5" is not particularly effective. I've tried it, the results were UGLY... ...
    Amen! Don't expect "shop vac" performance. I have that setup for my router table fence port and it's OK because of the specific duty. When I use the 2.5" port with a shop vac hose on it, I can pick up the usual dust and chips from the floor, but it's far from being as effective as a shop vac.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Arnold View Post
    My Jet tablesaw has a 4" port as do most tablesaws I've seen. On my Jet, there is a 4" flange screwed to the cabinet over a 4" hole. What I had planned to do is remove the 4" flange and cut a rectangular opening to accommodate a straight boot between the blast gate and cabinet. A 5" round to 8"x3.25" boot will fit in the space pretty well. My biggest problem at this point is two-fold: 1) My current arrangement is working and 2) at my age crawling around on the floor under my extension tables isn't all that attractive!

    One other thing to consider with dust/chip collection on the tablesaw is its internal design. My Jet has a steel plate sitting at an angle from the upper right side of the cabinet to lower left to aid in getting chips to the port. Most of the heavier material slides down the plate but some remains. Adding a steeper plate would help the process - another back burner project!
    Your plan sounds good, except I would go for 6" round to rectangular and upgrade the drop from 5" to 6". I know what you mean about getting down and dirty! I finally passed the big Six Oh this year.

    Most saw manufacturers, with the possible exception of SawStop have not given a lot of thought to cabinet design. There are so many things they could have easily (and inexpensively) done to improve dust collection- shroud the blade, better internal ramp, bigger ports, take-up air source that blows directly on the blade, etc., etc. The sloping plate in my Unisaw is not steep either though with my flow it works fine and I get no dust build-up, but they didn't seal it to the cabinet sides. Before I automated my DC, if I made a couple of quick cuts without turning on the DC, dust would make it through the cracks and collect on the floor under the saw. Now whenever the saw is on the blast gate is open and the DC running so it is not a problem, but sealing the gaps around the plate was one of the roll-around jobs I kept putting off.

    I was really put off by SawStop and their early regulatory efforts, but I must say Dr. Gass and Co. have really put some serious thought into not just the blade safety but dust collection and overall design. Of course, if money were no issue I would have a SawStop and Festools.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    ... I know what you mean about getting down and dirty! I finally passed the big Six Oh this year. ...
    Well, you're just a young whipper-snapper! I got to start carrying my Medicare card this year! I can get down on the floor OK (gravity works great); it's the standing up straight again that gets me!
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  9. #24
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    Unfortunately, I know what you mean!!!

  10. #25
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    For the smaller tools you should be fine with the 6-4-2 1/2 reduction. My Dust Ape handles it fine on the oss.
    Don't forget about Fernco type couplings, they can solve many DC problems when hooking up to machines.

    Dust collection isn't perfect, never has been, never will be. Do the best you can and move on, every system is different, no cure all.

    Ed

  11. #26
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    Good point, Ed.

    One of my transitions is from a 4" port to a 2.5" adaptor and gate for my router table fence. I can then plug in a 1.25" adaptor to feed my ROSs. It pulls the dust from the ROS but there's always residual in the hose. I'm changing that process to a dedicated shop vac so the air velocity will take care of the dust completely.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
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  12. #27
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    But recommending stepping down all the way from 6" to 2.5" is BAD advice. The advice should be use a shop vac and move on!

    To see the effect of stepping down ducting (including leaving a 6x4X4 wye on the blower) read this. That is only from 6" to 4" so you can just imagine what happens when you go to 2.5" or smaller! You can skip the first part and go to "Some Effects of Decreased Duct Area"

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    But recommending stepping down all the way from 6" to 2.5" is BAD advice. The advice should be use a shop vac and move on! ...
    And sometimes the best advice is to draw from practical experience, throw the engineer out the door and move on.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Arnold View Post
    And sometimes the best advice is to draw from practical experience, throw the engineer out the door and move on.
    Yup!





    ain't no chrome on my trailer hitch!

  15. #30
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    I love this thread. GREAT examples of dust shrouds and lots of good real-world pickup ideas. I have to say, I'll probably pull down a list of all Alan Schaffter's posts sometime soon and start reading--his advice is spot on, and his hands-on designs look great. Some great posts by all involved, this thread will be quite useful for folks!
    Thread on "How do I pickup/move XXX Saw?" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=597898

    Compilation of "Which Band Saw to buy?" threads http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...028#post692028

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