Running electrical in a rental garage

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Daniel,

While there might be less involved, don't be surprised if you were paying for it, it might cost you as much or more. California has run on it's own inflated economy for decades. The price of housing , labor etc, has historically been more expensive there than just about anywhere else in the nation. The differences have been dramatic!

[Rollie Meyers]

Looks like a call to my buddy is in order. Also, I just realized that I have a copy of NFPA 70 (NEC 2008) sitting here. Time to get reading!

Ken, to clarify, my comment on cost was for Matt's post in #3. I don't expect this work to be anywhere close to comparable, especially since the work in STL was upgrading a panel and adding a subpanel, where this would be pulling wire and installing outlets/lights/etc. And maybe a subpanel.


daniel

The 2008 NEC is irrelevent in the State of California due to the fact is has not been adopted, currently the 2005 NEC is in effect.

[John Neel]

The estimate was $3100!!!! I about messed my shorts when I saw it. Redoing the service to the house with an entirely new breaker was (i think) about that...or less). Was I delusional in thinking that the wiring, rearranging of the sub-panel and connecting fixtures would be no more than $1000?? I am in Central Jersey...everything costs more in the NE (compared to much of the country) but this is so far from what I expected I wonder what I am missing.

Matt

Seems high to me, but I really don't know the extent of the job. Maybe my experience will help: I wanted a 100 amp subpanel added for version 1 of my shop. There was also a defective circuit in the house that needed an electrician to find the problem. A friend recommended a "good company" that had wired the build out of his basement. I called. Estimator came out and priced it @ $1700.00. I said I would think about it. What I thought is that at the time, 7 years ago, the box would cost about $75.00; the 50 feet of cable would probably not cost $1.00 per foot; and the four circuit breakers would cost about $12.00 each. Add another $10.00 for miscellaneous screws, staples, etc. and the material cost should have been about $170.00. I then thought about how long it would take me to drill the holes, run the wire, mount the box, add the circuit breakers, etc. I thought that might take me a morning, half an 8 hour day. So, the price would have included $170.00 for materials and about $1530 for labor.

At the time, I thought an electrician should have made about $30.00 an hour (in Atlanta, but you can Google current electrician wages in your community). Even if it took twice as long as I thought, 8 hours, that was $240 to pay the electrician and that left $1290.00 after labor was paid.

Of course there are other costs: the company would have to pay social security, workmans comp, insurance, and miscellaneous other benefits. The company would also have to pay for the truck and the tools that the electrician would use. Even allocating $290.00 for those costs, that still left $1000.00 for profit. I thought that was a bit much for a morning, perhaps a day, of work. I sought another bid.

This bid was $750.00 and included replacing the defective circuit with a whole new circuit. I liked that price and signed the work order.

On the given day, an electrician arrived with a helper at 8:30. Did all the work and finished at 11:15. I paid, he was happy, the company made money. Life was good.

My father used to tell a story of an antique dealer who had a desk priced at $1000.00. A customer came in, looked and the desk, said it was overpriced and offered $50.00. The dealer said, "Sold." Customer was puzzled and asked, "If you were willing to sell it for $50.00, why did you ask for $1000.00?" The dealer replied, "You can never tell when someone might want to own a $1000.00 desk."

Do you want to have a $3100.00 electrical installation?

If you can't come up with a material and labor estimate yourself, see if you can get a friend to help you. If you can't do that, at least get several estimates. Ask each estimator how long it will take, how many people will be working. You can estimate most of the material costs by pricing boxes and wire at your local big box store. Add some money for benefits, trucks, equipment, and PROFIT. Companies have to make a profit or they go out of business.

Good luck.

John

[daniel lane]

The 2008 NEC is irrelevent in the State of California due to the fact is has not been adopted, currently the 2005 NEC is in effect.

Good to know. I have a copy of '05 as well, I'll be sure to reference that one. Thanks for the heads up.


daniel

[John Harden]

In CT, if the state found out that I had done unlicensed electrical work, there is a stiff fine I'd get slapped with - like north of $1000, possibly $10,000. It would not matter if the property owner gave me permission in writing.

I realize that the actual electrical work isn't that difficult - I've done a lot in our house, but that's not the point. It's a licensing/permit issue. I wouldn't be installing anything permanent in the garage without a permit and the only way you'll get the permit is with a licensed electrician on board.

Then, I suggest you don't do that in the state of Connecticut......

For Pete's sake man, give it a rest......

[Rob Russell]

John,

If you go back and read the thread, you'll see that I offered what I thought were constructive opinions about how to wire the garage.

There are 2 aspects to electrical work. The first is the actual work, the second is the licensing/permitting part of it. Your comment of "don't do that in the state of Connecticut" is a bit snide. In reality California - where the OP resides - is more stringent about licensing than
Connecticut.

This is a public forum and - as a Moderator - I feel it's important to make folks aware that there are licensing/permitting issues with electrical work that they may not be aware of.

The OP [Daniel] has an electrical contractor/buddy, so the licensing/permit issues should be moot.

[John Harden]

John,

If you go back and read the thread, you'll see that I offered what I thought were constructive opinions about how to wire the garage.

There are 2 aspects to electrical work. The first is the actual work, the second is the licensing/permitting part of it. Your comment of "don't do that in the state of Connecticut" is a bit snide. In reality California - where the OP resides - is more stringent about licensing than
Connecticut.

This is a public forum and - as a Moderator - I feel it's important to make folks aware that there are licensing/permitting issues with electrical work that they may not be aware of.

The OP [Daniel] has an electrical contractor/buddy, so the licensing/permit issues should be moot.

Rob, the horse is quite dead, so I think we can stop beating on it.

It's a rental house. First he has to get the owners permission. Pulling permits and doing the work comes later.

Noone is disagreeing with these points.

Given that, why are folks compelled to keep posting the same admonishments about "permits, permits permits" again and again?

Regards,

John

[Alan Schaffter]

I would bet even money CA code is MORE stringent than NEC! Building structure is- due to earthquakes, fire is- CA new homes now require sprinklers, etc.!!!

Assuming you get the owners permission, the garage is covered in wallboard which is mandated for fire code, you don't want to cut into the wallboard, you are not allowed to surface run NM (ROMEX) (anywhere in the US), AND you would like to take as much with you; the only two options are live with extension cords, or use surface mounted EMT conduit and boxes, then you can take it all with you. You will still need to tap into the panel, assuming there are vacant slots and sufficient capacity.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I've never been a landlord, but often a renter. I've always endeared myself to my landlords by always improving my rental -- and they always responded positively. Think about doing it right--I.e. Installing and leaving the wiring. It's value added when he has to rent it again and most landlords will recognize that and respond positively. (as when I managed to break a lease with many months to go after building a new porch --with materials deducted from my rent)

[Von Bickley]

you are not allowed to surface run NM (ROMEX) (anywhere in the US),

Alan,
That is new information for me. I was a certified electrician for over 30 years and I never heard of that.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan,
That is new information for me. I was a certified electrician for over 30 years and I never heard of that.

Romex can be exposed in certain conditions if it is not "subject to physical damage". Most local codes don't allow exposed ROMEX at all anymore, especially in a garages, specifically CA and NY.

In the 2002 NEC, 334.10 Uses Permitted, NM is permitted in one family dwellings. An attached garage is part of the dwelling. 334.10(A) permits NM for dry, exposed locations. 334.15 says that exposed wiring shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards. 334.15(B) indicates that cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary.

[john clanton]

I own a duplex and live in one half. Pulled a permit in Indiana. Ran a 60amp breaker from main panel to a sub panel. Added 12 110 outlets and 5 220 outlets with 4 conductor 10 gauge. I will be taking it out when we move so future tenants don't have all the 220 outlets. Just cost materials and permit for me.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

My father used to tell a story of an antique dealer who had a desk priced at $1000.00. A customer came in, looked and the desk, said it was overpriced and offered $50.00. The dealer said, "Sold." Customer was puzzled and asked, "If you were willing to sell it for $50.00, why did you ask for $1000.00?" The dealer replied, "You can never tell when someone might want to own a $1000.00 desk."

Just to close the loop...I sent him an email asking him to possibly break-out (itemize) the estimate a bit -- so that I could figure out if there were any areas where I was misunderstanding, or could possibly apply my own DIY labor before electrician is required. He said I was a good customer and wanted to keep it that way...and asked my budget/timing...I told him I was thinking 1500 (actually I had been planning $1000) but understood if he couldn't make the time and materials work. He wrote back this am and said bring in the tools, he'd do it for 1500.

MK

[John Neel]

Just to close the loop...I sent him an email asking him to possibly break-out (itemize) the estimate a bit -- so that I could figure out if there were any areas where I was misunderstanding, or could possibly apply my own DIY labor before electrician is required. He said I was a good customer and wanted to keep it that way...and asked my budget/timing...I told him I was thinking 1500 (actually I had been planning $1000) but understood if he couldn't make the time and materials work. He wrote back this am and said bring in the tools, he'd do it for 1500.

MK

Just like the $1000 desk. I can't imagine he would do it and lose money. I also find it hard to understand people who never question a price. I know a woman who was going to pay $5000 to have 4 steel doors installed. The installer who came to inspect the job before beginning warned her against the overcharge and he ended up doing it for her for a total charge of somewhere between $1000 and $1500. Again, this was a few years ago. It always pays to shop around. Another woman went to a new car dealer and asked how much a car in the showroom cost. The salesman pointed to the sticker and quoted the bottom line. She said, "I'll take it." I bet that made his day.



John

[daniel lane]

Well, I haven't had a conversation with my buddy yet (he's been out of town), but I talked to the landlord. We're on the same page as far as licensed electrician and permit, so I'm not worried that I've got anyone unreasonable to work with. Legal/etc. issues are no longer potential problems.

Back to the how: The main breaker panel is outside on this house - never seen that before, and I spent a good 10 minutes looking around the house trying to find it. It's on the side of the garage and there are 2 full-sized slots left open, so I'm thinking I will take both and pull 220V to a garage subpanel. Getting wires out of the panel and into the garage may be tricky - the panel is actually embedded into the wall, so I can't just punch a knockout - but that's where the electrician comes in. Once in the garage, I'll be looking for the cheapest means of running the wire to the subpanel, and once I'm at that point, I'll figure out the rest.

Thanks for the input, all.



daniel