Powermatic Drum Sander Electrical Supply

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

I'm thinking of buying the P/M 25" drum sander DDS 225, but I'm not sure
what the power requirements will be. It has a 5hp, 1PH, 230V. Taiwan
motor on it. I called the Powermatic Tech. line and was told that it draws
28 amps at 230 and requires a 50 amp breaker. I called back to find out
if this was peak amps or continuous amps, and I got someone else, he told me it pulls 17 continuous amps and requires a 40 amp breaker. I asked whether I could put it on a 30 amp breaker. He said when you start up and it hits the peak amps, it would mess up my relay switch. I have a 3hp Oneida high vacuum dust collector that draws 14 amps at 230V. I've
measure the peak amps at over 80! They only recommend I use a dedicated NEMA 6020R electrical receptacle. Can anybody out there sort this out for me?

Thanks,
Pat

[Carroll Courtney]

Welcome to the Creek Pat.Your sander being the size it is 5hp then it has a starter w/OLs.If it was me I would run #8 wire on a 40amp breaker,the starter will protect the sander if any overloading should occur.I guess you know the difference between peak and continous which is what you base the load on.If I'm not mistaking its RLA(continous) x 125%.If you don't fine a good answer you can google it and tomorrow I will ask the electrican.----Carroll

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Carroll,
Thanks for welcoming me. I've been a lurker to this site for at least 3 yrs. I've learned a great deal from all of you at the Creek. I've been building my shop for about 4 years and have used the Creek for every purchase and plan that has gone into it. The buying of a drum sander is out of frustration in making a simple cutting board, end grain hard maple and running it through my P/M 15" helical cutterhead planer and having to belt sand out the parrallel pattern the planer left on the cutting board, leaving dips, valleys and scratches from the belt. By the time I was through, the cutting board went from 1 1/4" to 1" thick. Right now, Tools Plus has the P/M on sale for $2555.00 delivered. I can't pass this up. Problem is I only have a 100 amp service to my shop. Thanks for your concern.
Pat

[Rick Fisher]

Hi Patrick.

That motor will run fine on a 40 amp breaker.. A good rule of thumb is to add 20% to the full load amps and round up..

I have a 5hp Tablesaw which draws 25amps, FLA and it runs on a 40 amp breaker.. I have also run it on a 30 amp breaker with no problem, but had a 40 wired in for it.

I also run a 5hp Bandsaw, which draws 23 amps FLA on a 30 amp breaker, and a 5hp planer which draws 25 amps, which is also running on a 30 amp breaker..

I have never snapped a breaker on any of these tools.


That Powermatic is a well regarded drum sander.. I have the 3hp Double drum from General, it gets a lot of use for a hobby machine..

I found that there is a real knack you get for running a double drum with success.. I burned my fair share of paper, but havent burned any in some time..

When you get it, dont get frustrated .. plan an hour of fiddling and learning.. For hobby guys, they are a huge asset .. worth the time it takes to figure them out.

[Joe Jensen]

I am running my 5HP PM225 dual drum sander on a 30 amp breaker. It has not tripped yet. (I planned to rewire to a larger wire and breaker if the 30 amp breaker ever tripped) Same with my 5HP Sawstop. Never tripped the 30amp breaker.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't think it's ever a bad idea to go a little bigger when doing electrical, having said that #8 wire is a bit on the overkill side. My Powermatic DD is now in it's second home. I had it wired with 12 gauge on a 30 amp breaker in it's 1st location, and it's now wired with 12 gauge on 30 amp fuses, and I've never blown a fuse or tripped a breaker. There are only 2 machines in my shop on 10 gauge wire, my 7-1/2 hp cyclone and my 9 hp planer.
I can't tell you how many amps it will draw, or calculate any of the mathematical formulas for voltage drop etc etc.... but I've thrown an awful lot of stock through it and have unintentionally bogged that motor down on several occasions. Having used it professionally for 5 years now, I feel pretty comfortable with how it's wired up.

good luck,
JeffD

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Thank you all for your input. I'm thinking of taking the shortest route. Since I have 12 gauge wire supplying all of my receptacles throughout my shop, I think I'll go with the 30 Amp breaker until it trips. At that point I'll consider a rewire job. Now all I have to do is figure how I'll get this 730# monster of of my truck and into my shop.
Pat

[Leo Graywacz]

I don't think it's ever a bad idea to go a little bigger when doing electrical, having said that #8 wire is a bit on the overkill side. My Powermatic DD is now in it's second home. I had it wired with 12 gauge on a 30 amp breaker in it's 1st location, and it's now wired with 12 gauge on 30 amp fuses, and I've never blown a fuse or tripped a breaker. There are only 2 machines in my shop on 10 gauge wire, my 7-1/2 hp cyclone and my 9 hp planer.
I can't tell you how many amps it will draw, or calculate any of the mathematical formulas for voltage drop etc etc.... but I've thrown an awful lot of stock through it and have unintentionally bogged that motor down on several occasions. Having used it professionally for 5 years now, I feel pretty comfortable with how it's wired up.

good luck,
JeffD

12 ga wire is rated for 20 amps. You will melt the wire before you blow the breaker. You should down size the breaker before something bad happens.

[Rick Fisher]

12 ga wire is rated for 20 amps. You will melt the wire before you blow the breaker. You should down size the breaker before something bad happens.

+1

That machine needs 10 ga wire..

[Chris Barnett]

Here are a few references for match load and current to wire size. Run a 5 hp motor for very long on #12, and you might have a serious problem. I would ask for first option on a fire damaged sander but you live too far away to make it worthwhile

http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

[Mitchell Andrus]

Here are a few references for match load and current to wire size. Run a 5 hp motor for very long on #12, and you might have a serious problem. I would ask for first option on a fire damaged sander but you live too far away to make it worthwhile

http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

Using the calculator on csgnetwork site, you get 14ga wire for a 240, 1 phase, 30 amp circuit, 40 ft.

Not 12 or 10???

As I understand it, the type of wire (insulation type and wire type... solid or multi-strand) has some bearing on the gauge required. Yes?
.
.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think maybe some of you guys are mistakingly using 110v capacities instead of 220v ? I just double checked that calculator also and it gave me 14 gauge for my sander, so not sure where you guys ended up with 10 gauge??? Only explanation I can think of is that you were thinking it's 110v, which of course would be silly with a 5hp sander, but I can't see how else you got 10 gauge?
Just to re-iterate I've run my sander for hours at a time and haven't melted anything, haven't gotten the wiring too warm to touch, haven't set anything on fire etc. 12 gauge is plenty adequate for a 5 hp motor.
But hey if you want to spend a bunch of extra cash on 10 gauge in your shops....I won't stop you

good luck,
JeffD

[Mitchell Andrus]

I think maybe some of you guys are mistakingly using 110v capacities instead of 220v ? I just double checked that calculator also and it gave me 14 gauge for my sander, so not sure where you guys ended up with 10 gauge??? Only explanation I can think of is that you were thinking it's 110v, which of course would be silly with a 5hp sander, but I can't see how else you got 10 gauge?
Just to re-iterate I've run my sander for hours at a time and haven't melted anything, haven't gotten the wiring too warm to touch, haven't set anything on fire etc. 12 gauge is plenty adequate for a 5 hp motor.
But hey if you want to spend a bunch of extra cash on 10 gauge in your shops....I won't stop you

good luck,
JeffD

I've also run the same sander on 30A breaker, 12ga. The wire doesn't get even slightly warm after running for 20 mins. or more.

Of course, it's the short/slow burn at <breaker amps that you need to protect for.
.

[Leo Graywacz]

The circuit breaker is not to portect the machine, it is to protect the wire. 12ga can handle 20 amps. Doesn't matter at what voltage. By putting a 30amp breaker on the system you are violating electrical codes and endangering yourself. If for some reason you have an electrical fire and they find this breaker on 12ga wire your insurance won't pay out.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The circuit breaker is not to portect the machine, it is to protect the wire. 12ga can handle 20 amps. Doesn't matter at what voltage. By putting a 30amp breaker on the system you are violating electrical codes and endangering yourself. If for some reason you have an electrical fire and they find this breaker on 12ga wire your insurance won't pay out.

Yes, it does matter what the voltage is because we're not talking about a single wire and a neutral wire. We're talking about a 3 wire, 240V circuit. Hot, Hot, Neutral.

30 amp circuit on a 120 volt, 2 conductor circuit equals 30 amps PER LEG.

30 amp circuit on a 240 volt, 3 conductor circuit equals 15 amps PER LEG. That's well within the capacity of a 12ga wire.

Black = 15 amps.
Red = 15 amps.
Neutral = nul.
Total = 30 amps.

Each hot wire does half of the work. AC allows this and it's one of the reasons why AC can be transmitted many miles on a wire the size of your thumb.

Each 12 ga. 'hot' wire carries half of the circuit's 30 amps. in a 240V, 3 conductor circuit. No?



The way you get 240 volts is by using 2 hot legs (120 volts each) that are out of phase from each other by 180 degrees. No neutral needed.
Basically it all starts at the power company transformer.
The transformer is 'tapped' along a coil at 3 different locations along the coil.
The electrical current dose not hit the transformer coil all at once.
It starts off at 0 volts and then (over time) it increases to 120 volts, goes back to zero, then goes to 120 volts (opposite polarity), then cycles back to zero volts.
This is why they call it AC - alternating current, and it all happens 60 cycle per second.
The first tap is at one end of the transformer, it is considered a hot leg.
The second tap is in the middle of the transformer, and it is the neutral, and is referred to as the grounded conductor. It is grounded at every transformer (by the power company), and it is also grounded at your meter/electrical service.
The third tap is at the far end of the transformer coil. It is considered a hot leg.
These two hot legs are always out of phase from each other by 180 degrees. That is to say that they are exactly the opposite of each other. When the first hot leg is peaking at +120 volts, the second hot leg is peaking at -120 volts.
The potential difference (voltage) between the two hot legs is
positive 120 volts and negative 120 volts ---- 240 volts.
So you get 240 volts by using the two hot legs only - no neutral needed.
You get 120 volts by using a hot leg for one wire, and the second wire is the grounded conductor (also called the neutral or in my example - center tap).
.