Bob savage1 CNC start up advice

[James Jaragosky]

Bob as I see it you can either find a fantastic deal on a used machine that has all the features you want or purchase a new machine that has less than everything on your wish list.
·A cnc router is big, heavy, loud, and messy.
(1)Do you have the room to accommodate this type of thing?
·Plywood is big and heavy.
(2)Can you haul this material around easily?
(3)Do you have storage for the material?
(4)Do you have room for all the machinery that you will need to build cabinets?
(5)Do you have room to assemble the cabinets?
(6)Will you have a space just for finishing?
·Because finishing anything in the same area as the cutting machinery is a pain in the neck. Dust gets in the finish and it feels like sandpaper.
(7)When you finish one cabinet, do you have storage for it while you are constructing and finishing the rest?

If you are just a hobbyist with aspirations to make a dream or hobby into a business someday, then the answer to most of these questions is probably no. especially if all you have as a workspace is a two-car garage I have a 3-car garage and I have no room to effectively build anything. In addition, finishing is a challenge.

My suggestion is start out with a smaller machine and see where it takes you. if a bigger machine is in your future you will be able to make the money for one with the smaller machine. a 3 head machine or one with a tool changer is nice to have but unless you are a production shop you will find that that it is unnecessary, you can keep up with the tool changes without a problem. same goes for a vacuum table while very nice there are other options. a spindle would be grand but a Porter Cable router is quite capable of accomplishing your goals. Although noisier. Can you cut a 4x8 sheet in half and double it up to cut both halves at once; for box cabinets this would seem very possible.

Do not let your want for the perfect machine keep you from moving on your dreams. like I said; get what you can easily afford and let that machine pay for your dream machine. I say easily afford because there are so many unexpected costs associated with starting this type of hobby or business that you will be glad that you gave yourself the extra cushion.
A laser will put a much smaller financial dent in your wallet. It takes less support equipment and less space to run a successful operation.
Just my .008

[Bob Savage]

Whoah, my own thread!!!

James, thank you very much for your input. It's greatly appreciated and all of your points and questions are well taken.

You are correct about this being a hobby, initially, with the dream of having an income producing business. I am working in a 2 car garage that aside from a washer and dryer (may need to do something about dust control for them), will be dedicated to the workshop, however, I absolutely do not have separate work areas for cutting, finishing, etc.

My want for the spindle is due to 1) That many have advised that if I'm cutting plywood primarily (still not sure on that, either), it's a must and 2) It's quieter. Since this is going to be at my home, and I'm not going to noise reduction extremes other than closing up air leaks, etc., 15-20 db less amplitude is going to keep my family happy.

The thing is, if the difference between the "dream machine" and something smaller with a router instead of spindle is only $5k, I just won't be able to bring myself to compromise.

Obviously, you recognize the internal struggle I'm in right now, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread.

You've been very helpful, and everything you say is being taken under serious consideration. Please keep it coming.

Oh, and I don't want a Chinese machine.

[Bob Savage]

... you've really got me rethinking this, James. I'll be $30k into this by the time I'm finished if I go with the CAMaster "dream machine."

[James Jaragosky]

... you've really got me rethinking this, James. I'll be $30k into this by the time I'm finished if I go with the CAMaster "dream machine."

More things that cost money:
·Joiner (at least 6”)
·Table-saw (for cabinets you will need a good one at least 1000.00 for a good one)
·Band saw
·Router-table (you will need one of these as well because some things will be easier this way).
·Planer
·Oscillating sander
·Quality work bench
·Bench grinder (for sharpening bits chisels and scrapers)
·Air compressor
·Air nailers
Biscuit joiner

[James Jaragosky]

Other thoughts
How’s the lighting in your shop? I spent over 600.00 on mine and still need focused light sources for doing proper finish work.
Clamps, How are you set? you can spend hundreds on these; I only have around 10 to 20 and I never have enough of the right size that I need at any given time. I could use 15 of each size. Then you have to store them! This is a whole area of discussion in its self.
How about solvents and other flammables; where you going to store them?
You may also need a computer just for the CNC depending on your setup.

I am not trying to talk you out of anything. I am just passing on what I have learned.

[Keith Outten]

I cut plywood on my ShopBot at home that has a PC router motor.
I also cut plywood on the ShopBot at CNU with a spindle.
When you cut plywood it doesn't make any difference whether you use a router or spindle, the noise the bit makes when its cutting drowns out the noise of the machine by a long shot.

The shop at CNU has:

1 PRTAlpha 48x96.
1 HF 2hp dust collector.
1 Ridgid 5" ROS.
1 $29.00 ShopVac.
1 home made router table. Corian top on a Black and Decker Workmate.
1 small PC pancake air compressor. (no air tools)
1 24" by 48" workbench on wheels.
1 bench top Delta drill press.
1 belt sander (1" by 30")
1 battery drill with about 15 drill bits.
1 dremel tool.
1 Bosch Jig Saw.
1 Makita circular saw.
1 measuring tape.
12 router bits.
6 spring clamps.
1 computer.
A few hand tools...screwdrivers and wrenches.
That's it!

I make about $150,000.00 worth of signs per year in this little bare bones shop which is a two car garage that I have to share....my boss parks his golf cart inside the shop every night.

We have a laser engraver that is in my office but I don't consider it a shop tool.
.

[james mcgrew]

one of my early shops was a slot 10x20 in a storage rental unit and the back of a pickup truck, yes there was no cnc. but where there is a will there is a way.

actually Robert our shop manager is an interesting story, when i first met him he was building the library desk for the lexington county sc main public library, the desk is over 48' long in a 32' radius i watched him build it in components and each day carry that thing out of a small shop that was a third in floor space as he needed in order to set it up each day,

he would set it up and take it apart each day. i thought now that is woodwork!! i asked him to join up with me and that was 14 years ago

my grandma once told me how i would know i was doing the right thing! she said it would be awful uncomfortable but my gut would fight for it.
(kinda like getting married, having children)

please go see some machines, talk to owners, they are in your area, go see james machine, he is one heck of an interesting fellow!! people who are into cnc love showing them off, i am challenged daily by this. i would love to have built my business by simply writing a check but unfortunatly it did not work that way, one tool one job at a time, jobs paid for tools and i only finaced the two largest ones, everybody pays something, and on the other hand there are some who think and say i have it goin on to this i say i have rarely done the same project twice and if there had not been a need for truly custom work i would not be in business.

i call it "Falling down uphill"

[Bob Savage]

Awesome info guys! I *am* going to make this happen, I'm just not sure exactly how I'm going about it yet. I think I will, however, go with a router to save $2k+ initially. If, as has been alluded to, I start making the money to justify the spindle, I'll get one.

I've got a garage full of tools already, just not necessarilly everything I need.

I do want to keep the dust to a minimum and would like some advice on that. I was thinking of getting this: http://www.toolking.com/deltamachinery_50-760.aspx

Any thoughts on the Delta, or something less expensive? Oh, and I would imagine that Delta will be at least as loud as a router.

I've got "a check" coming on October 30th that's going to cover the equipment, so I have a little time before the cash is in my hands. Of course, I don't have to spend right away, but I'm going to be aweful impatient once I have it...

[Keith Outten]

Consider buying the Harbor Frieight 2hp DC at $189.00, then scrap the bags and use an exterior chip box setup like I use at CNU. The chip box is actually the shipping box that the ShopBot came in, I just painted it white and installed a 6" dryer vent for the exhaust.
.

[Bob Savage]

Consider buying the Harbor Frieight 2hp DC at $189.00, then scrap the bags and use an exterior chip box setup like I use at CNU. The chip box is actually the shipping box that the ShopBot came in, I just painted it white and installed a 6" dryer vent for the exhaust.
.

Thanks Keith. You're referring to this guy, and just sticking a box in place of the bag? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=97869

I like the price. Is there going to be a significant difference in dust in the garage, based on the 5 micron vs. 1 micron capabilities?

By the way, I was struggling through Aspire yesterday, watched the available tutorials, etc. This morning I was finally able to create something that included toolpaths. It's been fun looking at the time changes by using different tools, more tools/paths, etc.

I can certainly see how one can be cutting parts quickly on one of these.

[James Jaragosky]

I cut plywood on my ShopBot at home that has a PC router motor.
I also cut plywood on the ShopBot at CNU with a spindle.
When you cut plywood it doesn't make any difference whether you use a router or spindle, the noise the bit makes when its cutting drowns out the noise of the machine by a long shot.

The shop at CNU has:

1 PRTAlpha 48x96.
1 HF 2hp dust collector.
1 Ridgid 5" ROS.
1 $29.00 ShopVac.
1 home made router table. Corian top on a Black and Decker Workmate.
1 small PC pancake air compressor. (no air tools)
1 24" by 48" workbench on wheels.
1 bench top Delta drill press.
1 belt sander (1" by 30")
1 battery drill with about 15 drill bits.
1 dremel tool.
1 Bosch Jig Saw.
1 Makita circular saw.
1 measuring tape.
12 router bits.
6 spring clamps.
1 computer.
A few hand tools...screwdrivers and wrenches.
That's it!

I make about $150,000.00 worth of signs per year in this little bare bones shop which is a two car garage that I have to share....my boss parks his golf cart inside the shop every night.

We have a laser engraver that is in my office but I don't consider it a shop tool.
.

Keith he was talking about building cabinets, I really feel that he will need a few more tools than are needed to run a sign operation.

[Bob Savage]

Keith he was talking about building cabinets, I really feel that he will need a few more tools than are needed to run a sign operation.

Hi James,

As you've probably noticed by now, at this particular moment I'm nothing more than a dreamer without certain direction. Yes, I'd LOVE to do the cabinet and woodworking like Jim has done, in my own house. I'd also like to find a niche selling said quality items, but I also fully understand the time consuming reality of even learning that craft, let alone the equipment and space investment.

If I were to prioritize my initial goals, they would be:

1) Sign Making
2) Speaker cabinets and amplifier head shells
3) nick nacks that look like fun to play around with
4) Kitchen cabinets for my house

I believe the first two are attainable within reasonable amounts of time, and reasonable machine and tool sets. Number three is so broad as to have very little meaning, but could entail cutting some guitar bodies, fun stuff for kids, whatever.

And finally, I have a friend who's been a cabinet maker for many years, albeit he's gotten out of the fabrication business and moved into carpentry and cabinet installation over the last few years. That is to say, I realize I'm not going to be cutting cabinets overnight because the learning curve is steep and as you've clearly pointed out, a lot of tooling and space is necessary to pull it off.

Please don't misunderstand me, as I do appreciate your input, however, while I'm choking over a $20k machine and that probably won't change, I cannot allow analysis paralysis because 5 years from now, I'll still be stressing out over it, without having cut a single part.

I'm not buying a Chinese machine. The CAMaster and Shopbot are the only two machines I'm looking at now. I'm going to call Joey on Monday to see what he suggests and if there's an acceptable solution as far as machine sizing, etc., I'll buy one. If not, I'll go with a smaller Shopbot.

The smell of wood shavings in my garage beckons me. I must make it happen.

[Gary Campbell]

Bob...

Have you considered a part time, weekend or evening job building cabinets or signs? Many shops will be happy to take on a low or no pay "apprentice" that is willing to work and learn. The cutting process of either trade is probably 25% of the learning curve. It is a much shorter process to learn from an accomplished tradesperson, than the trial and error of being self taught.

Any monies received can be earmarked for tool purchase. Even tho it can be done first, in most cases the CNC is near the last tool most of us purchase. There are many tools that are must have for cabinet making whether you have a CNC or not. You might want to start with a saw, jointer, planer, etc and let products that you sell pay for the CNC. You can also make them and give them to family and friends. This is a good way to get the word out about what you do.

[James Jaragosky]

Hi James,

As you've probably noticed by now, at this particular moment I'm nothing more than a dreamer without certain direction. Yes, I'd LOVE to do the cabinet and woodworking like Jim has done, in my own house. I'd also like to find a niche selling said quality items, but I also fully understand the time consuming reality of even learning that craft, let alone the equipment and space investment.

If I were to prioritize my initial goals, they would be:

1) Sign Making
2) Speaker cabinets and amplifier head shells
3) nick nacks that look like fun to play around with
4) Kitchen cabinets for my house

I believe the first two are attainable within reasonable amounts of time, and reasonable machine and tool sets. Number three is so broad as to have very little meaning, but could entail cutting some guitar bodies, fun stuff for kids, whatever.

And finally, I have a friend who's been a cabinet maker for many years, albeit he's gotten out of the fabrication business and moved into carpentry and cabinet installation over the last few years. That is to say, I realize I'm not going to be cutting cabinets overnight because the learning curve is steep and as you've clearly pointed out, a lot of tooling and space is necessary to pull it off.

Please don't misunderstand me, as I do appreciate your input, however, while I'm choking over a $20k machine and that probably won't change, I cannot allow analysis paralysis because 5 years from now, I'll still be stressing out over it, without having cut a single part.

I'm not buying a Chinese machine. The CAMaster and Shopbot are the only two machines I'm looking at now. I'm going to call Joey on Monday to see what he suggests and if there's an acceptable solution as far as machine sizing, etc., I'll buy one. If not, I'll go with a smaller Shopbot.

The smell of wood shavings in my garage beckons me. I must make it happen.

Bob I have not mentioned a Chinese machine in the last several posts, although you do remind me each time that you are not interested in one.I got the message several posts ago.


I only broke down my assessment of your situation and goals based on the posts that you have made and the reply's that others have given in return.

I was not trying to talk you into or out of anything. My intent was to help you evaluate the reality of what you are suggesting. You seen to be a bit light on direction and planning; yet you are considering purchasing a 20k machine to accomplish something, but you do not seem sure exactly what.
In my opinion, that seems a recipe for failure.
Desire can take someone a long way it will help you overcome obstacles that others will tell you can't be overcome. Passion is also another trait that will help you achieve goals that others find impossible to obtain. A well thought plan would enhance your possibility for success. Make the plan then purchase the equipment, not the other way around.
Everything I have written is only is my opinion.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best, and look forward to hearing of your success.

[james mcgrew]

hey gary welcome to the creek!!!

jim