Ceramic glaze test - it's NOT cermark!

[Steve Rozwood]

Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.

[Dee Gallo]

Beautiful Tim! Now, where are the gritty details? Settings, type of glaze, application rate? If you don't want to share your glaze formula for free, can we PM you for a price?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[Steve Rozwood]

Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.

[Dee Gallo]

Dee, meant to ask and it's not readily apparent from your posts... was the glaze just a clear overcoat, or was it a solid color, like black? Was it a low fire or very low fire?

Dan, it was a ceramic overglaze made by Amaco, the ceramic company. It comes in a watercolor-looking set and you mix water with it. I made it fairly thick, about the consistency of milky-cream. Being an overglaze, I suppose it's mostly glass. It is a low-fire glaze, only cone 6 which is as low as it gets I think.

Aftger examining the tile results again, it looks like I might have had more success with a thicker coat. I also see that it did deposit some color, however faint in the thicker areas. I put it on with a brush and none too carefully, to get some variation in thickness. The colors I used were blue, red, green, orange, yellow, brown and black.

So I'm off to get some regular glaze colors...

cheers, dee

[Martin Boekers]

Steve, I have a jar of Cermark I bought a few years back for ceramic (LMC-6044 lot #121306sw Cermark Ferro) I believe I paid $80-$100 dollars for it and never could get it to work.

So when a new formula came out I decided againt it. (pretty expensive to test with it after previous failure)

I know that copyrights, trademarks and patents are legal and shouldn't be taken lightly.

I believe though that someone can improve upon a patent and apply as an improvement.

If you follow this forum I'm sure you have read concerns over patents and
how they can be applied on what we do. Maybe as a patent holder you can help us on understanding the process a little better.

As for as I understand there is a company that holds patent rights for lasering clay bricks. I believe one of our members had recieved a cease and desist letter on engraving bricks.

If it's possible to have a patent to engrave upon bricks, what about wood, acrylic, glass, ceramic etc. We would all be out of business if this was allowed.

In Cermark's case we are not allowed even experimentation with using other materials to coat tile or metal to burn with our laser?

How can some processes be patentable and not others? Take grilling ground beef for an example. Wouldn't it be great to have a patent on that process and get royalties from every burger joint in the world!

Help us on understanding the process a bit better!

Thanks,

Marty

[Dee Gallo]

Steve,

Thanks for chiming in here - please be aware that we all agree that Cermark/Thermark is an excellent product and we all love it. However, this all started because I could not find a small sample pack to play with.

You (the company) must realize that many of us are playing around with small quantities and personal projects. There is no way that anyone can compete with the quality and consistency of C-Thermark.

That said, you will always find us out here playing around with various materials and trying new things just to see what we can do or if something CAN be done. I don't think any of us represents a factory level production house.

So, if the C-Thermark people want to do us laser-folk a favor, they should make it more affordable to test out the products. We are addictive people and will spend money to try something if it's within reason. Otherwise, we just sit here and read other people's posts and wish.

As I mentioned in my first post, the cost of trying 5 colors at $60 each is just too much for the average Creeker. And who needs that much stuff unless you have a real job to use it on? And who is going to develop a market without ever trying the materials out? It's a vicious cycle.

Thanks for listening, dee

[Tim Wooldridge]

All I have to say is. My glazing process produces better results then cermark, that seem more permanent. Also I'm not infringing on anyones copyright with my process.

[Steve Rozwood]

Hi Martin, I'm sorry about your bad experience. We would be glad to send you replacement material and help you in whatever way we can. Just let me know.

As far as who gets a patent, that's entirely up to the patent office. I do not know the entire history about the brick patent but you are correct, that company used to actively enforce their patent but it may have expired by now. This is for vitrification of the brick by a laser and I believe it was a YAG laser. How did they get it, apparently they thought of it first or at least filed the first patent and it was granted. They lucked out. The same could be said about the bluejeans patent.

Much of this has to do with obviousness of an invention. The inventors must show that their innovations are new, useful and nonobvious to someone "Skilled in the arts".

[Steve Clarkson]

This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents.

I find that very hard to believe.

Tim, hope you'll share your formula before the Ferro attorneys finish their letter to you this afternoon.

[Belinda Barfield]

Mr. Rozwood,

As have others here on the Engraver's Forum, I have tried several of your products. I love the tape. I have also used the aerosol can variety with good results. The first can I purchased was still half full when the propellant went dead. I switched to the "mix it yourself" variety and have yet to achieve acceptable results with it. Your customer service reps have been most helpful, and I chalk the lack of acceptable results up to my inability to work with that particular product.

Having said all of that, I agree with Dee. Laser heads by nature have inquisitive minds, that's the reason a cat won't stay in the same room with any of us, and our cheese sandwiches have unique toast marks. Most of the people here just want to have options available to them that are cost effective, and if that is something we can develop on our own I doubt any of us has the ability to mass market it and offer your company any sort of competition.

[Tim Wooldridge]

Well I don't plan on sharing every pain staking detail but I can definitally get you guys in the right direction. The gloss that we use to fire the glaze at a much lower temperature is actually patented, but I have talked to my boss (my boss is my dad) and we're thinking about selling batches of it, or the formula itself.

Personally, if it was my business and not my dads, I would just share the whole process with you guys which I am pretty much already doing. I haven't gone into details about myself but I'm 21 years old, and I've been doing computers since I was 5. My dad started this business in 2002 and I've been working with him since 15. He decided to get the laser system in 2006, and it's been an adventure/struggle with the laser since then. I love the machine and what I can do with it, but it has been difficult to make real money with it. I've done hundreds of orders, but I still can't even come close to the money we make with the tile bullnosing / cutting / slab bullnosing. We are the only tile bullnosing shop in southern colorado, so that is by far our bread and butter.

[Tim Wooldridge]

Tim,

Are you actually lasering the tiles are making the mask and the firing them?

Thanks,

Marty

For the porcelain and ceramics, yes. I fire them for 3.5 hours at 016 with our special gloss.

For the marbles and travertines..no. I use a permanent cemetary grade paint.

[Martin Boekers]

Tim

Thanks for the info!

I think some of us here thought you were coating the tiles then lasering them to set the glaze.

Most of the tile work I do is decorative so the durability is not an issue.

I moved away from dye sub becuase of cost and color correction issues.

I am doing most of the work now on store tiles with CLT (color laser transfer) Clients have been very pleased and cost cheap (Reasonable)
and time frames are quick.

Iv'e only started marketing the tiles for a couple months, but it has been the best start up of a new product that I have experienced in my shop.
The plus is no new equipment cost!!!

Good to have you on board!


Marty

[Dee Gallo]

Wow Tim, I guess I have to say I'm disappointed. I misunderstood and thought you were setting the glaze with your laser, not just making the mask with it.

Oh well, back to my secret lab...

cheers, dee

[Bob Savage]

Hi Martin,

Tim

Thanks for the info!

I think some of us here thought you were coating the tiles then lasering them to set the glaze.

That's what I thought too.

I am doing most of the work now on store tiles with CLT (color laser transfer) Clients have been very pleased and cost cheap (Reasonable)
and time frames are quick.

What is CLT? I only found info on this for use with laser printers. Are you using a printer?