A good #4 is the only plane I don't have in my arsenal. Any thoughts on which would be a better smoother. I have 2 #3's a smooth and corrugated bottom. Is the only difference between the two is the length ? The 4 1/2 being longer.
[OP]
Member
A good #4 is the only plane I don't have in my arsenal. Any thoughts on which would be a better smoother. I have 2 #3's a smooth and corrugated bottom. Is the only difference between the two is the length ? The 4 1/2 being longer.
Member
Russ - A 4-1/2 is wider...IIRC it's the same width as a 5-1/2, 6, & 7. I really like my 4-1/2....have 2 now.
L-R: 04-1/2. 04, 04, 4, 4 (MF #9), 3, 3, 3.
Last edited by scott spencer; 07-28-2009 at 9:15 PM.
Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....
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A 4 1/2 is wider, not longer. It's really just a matter of personal prefernce. The 4 1/2, of coures is heavier which some think is good for momentum and others think is bad to lift on the return stroke. It can be harder to push a wider blade (and heavier plane) as it is cutting more wood, but with smoother thin shavings this is rarely very noticeable. It's really 6 of one half dozen of the other with personal prefences ruling on the tie.
Oh, and if we're doing pictures:
Last edited by Sean Hughto; 07-28-2009 at 10:25 PM.
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It was my understanding that, at least in the Stanley flavor, the 4-1/2 was an inch longer (10") than the 4 (9"). Not a significant difference, though.Originally Posted by Sean Hughto
Member
Sorry, you are absolutely right, Bill, that technically, the 4 1/2 models (from Stanley, LN or others) tend to be slightly longer - like an inch or less. I guess my point was that the extra length is not the selling point of this plane for most woodworkers, but rather its noticeable added width and additional mass.
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For what it may be worth to the OP, here is a pic that happens to have the LN 4 and 4 1/2 together (the two middle shelves). I think it shows farily well how the 4 1/2 is essentially just a beefier smoother all around. Sometimes that beef is good and sometimes something a little more agile is good. It depends what you're making and how you like to work.
Contributor
Russ,
You do not mention if you would be buying new or used.
If used, the #4 will be cheaper in most cases. New, there isn't a whole lot of difference in the prices.
I like both.
For wide smoothing of course the #4-1/2 is nice. It is also nice on smaller items. My problem comes with having 3 #4s that are set up for different tasks. The #4-1/2 is set for light to medium shavings. For skew planing to lower the effective angle, the #4-1/2 has the #4 beat.
jim
Member
Sean,Oh, and if we're doing pictures:
Oink!
-Jerry
Contributor
OK, here is an Oink, Oink picture. This picture is over three years old. A few of these planes are no longer mine. Besides, more have been acquired in that time, at least more have come than have gone.
100_0362.jpg
My thoughts were to go take a new picture, but then it is hot and that would be a lot of work.
jim
Member
The Stanley type #4.1/2 is 10inches long and takes a wider blade at 2.3/8ths inches against the #4 at 9 inches with 2 inch blade. It is just over 1 lb heavier.
I strongly feel that the #4.1/2 is the better smoother for general furniture making as the extra weight makes all the difference to the way the plane works: much less prone to chatter and easier to work with for extended periods. Taking the same blade as a #5.1/2, #6 and #7 is a bonus.
The English ones tend to be slightly wider because the casting is thicker so there is a bit more weight.
Having refurbished dozens of both sizes , both American and English plus a few Canadian and Australian versions I have come to the conclusion that the wider model was /is better made and intended for the tradesman originally.
I could happily do without a #4 but not the 4.1/2-maybe that is a habit built up over about 40 years use of the wider one, I don't know. I would rather pair up a #3 with the #4.1/2.
The most important difference between the two is, I think, the difference in operation.
Dem's my thoughts.
Member
I agree.
For years my only handplane was a Stanley 4 1/2 and it did almost everything. Next was a block plane and lastly a number 7.
I have many more now, but could easily survive on just those three.
If I could have only one plane - it would be my 4 1/2.
Cheers
MC
Contributor
I made this statement in another thread, and from the above post, it should be stated again! "....like most addicts, I have learned early on to lay the blame elsewhere - so, again publicly, I blame Jim Koepke for this illness
Were it not for his constant, informative, and enticing posts - motivated by his quest to create a working tool from nothing, I would be a productive individual able to go about my business during the day without thought to the next "find." Honestly, I don't know how he lives with the guilt!! "
What more proof does one need!!
Russ, to the original question, why not get the first good one that comes available, and then look for the other. You know you want to own both
Member
Russ,
I believe your question about the size difference has been answered. But as far as the usefulness of a 4 1/2 versus a 4, that's a good question.
I have a Type 15 No 4 and a 604 that were my go to planes for smoothing. That is until about a year ago when I got a LN 4 1/2 from a guy who was selling off his LN collection. A slight honing and it was taking such beautiful full width shavings that I was hooked.
I liked it so much that I decided to tune up a Stanley Type 11 No 4 1/2 I had laying around. Once that was turned I could almost duplicate the LN 4 1/2 performance.
Now when I want to smooth out a board the plane I reach for most often is one of my No 4 1/2s.
Dominic Greco
Member
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, whoa now. Think of all the planes I don't have:
- no 8
- no 6
- no 45 or 55
- no skew block
- no skew rabbet
- no dado plane
- no wall full of scores of molding planes of every profile
- no infills
- no Marcou's
etc.
In short, I am woefully plane difficient. <sobs>
Member
Russ - You don't say whether you're looking to buy an antique Stanley or a new Lie-Nielsen (or perhaps a new Lee Valley). There's one item related to buying a new L-N that others haven't yet mentioned.
Besides the difference in width, mass, and length, there is a difference between L-N's offerings for higher-angle frogs. In the 4-1/2, you can get a 50 degree HAF, or a 55 degree HAF. In the 4, the only HAF that's available is a 50 degree.
If you're mostly using well-behaved hardwoods, I would not personally suggest getting the plane with a higher angle frog - there is a significant difference in the effort required to push the plane between 45 and 55 degrees, as well as decreased edge life. Also, you can very easily put a small back-bevel on the blade to increase the cutting angle if you've got the very occasional highly-figured maple board that needs planing.
And on the antique side, as Jim Koepke mentioned, #4-1/2s are significantly more expensive than a #4, though not bank-account breaking unless you're looking for a Bedrock 4-1/2.
This is my own preference, but I prefer the LN bronze #4. It's got some extra mass over the iron #4, and I prefer a smaller, more nimble plane for furniture work. The only time I've wished I had a wider smoother is doing very large panel work - such as a large tabletop. In those cases, I switch to a L-N 5-1/2, which is as wide as the 4-1/2, though longer.
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