Comparison between MM Cu410 Elite-S and Felder CF740S

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Paul, I think that the Felder runs a variable frequency drive to convert the single phase to run the three phase motors.

[Leigh Betsch]

The problem with thread like this they soon become us vs them in nature. The reality is not many people have owned both machines so they don't have a real good comparison of the performance of the machines. Then they get real defensive about "their" machine, which I really don't understand, it's not like they invented it or their last name is Felder or MiniMax. The best you can hope for is someone that actually owns one that will explain the benefits of the features and objectively explain why the feature has value to them. And maybe you can convince someone to share the purchase price feature by feature so you can make a value decision of your own, or you can get some quotes. You gotta line up what you get and how much you spend for the two machines, factor in the service, delivery, optional features that you want and are willing to pay for, try to get peoples experiences to see what they perceive as value and make your choice. I happen to own a MM ST4, its a great machine, makes me smile every time I use it. But I really don't know if it is better or worse than a Felder. Some day I'm going to buy a Felder, then I'll know. All I really know is there are a lot of people that do better work than me with a lot less equipment.

[John Harden]

Leigh, I haven't really seen that in either this thread or the one I started that went for four or five pages. People have been pretty civil.

In my veiw, the money quote is this one below:

...Rather than focusing on the specific option issues, does anyone have direct experience with both machines who could weigh in and help me avoid a mistake?

Rick

Given the two machines he's looking at, their precision engineering, well deserved reputations and high cost, I honestly don't see how he could make a mistake buying either.

The one thing I'd really recommend is he concentrate on what options (not accessories) he needs and/or wants. Many of these decisions need to be made before he places the order, regardless of which manufacturer he chooses.

You can always buy extension tables, shaper spindles or doodads later, but adding machine options like powered height adjustments, more HP, 3 phase motors, or a longer (or shorter) slider after the fact can get very expensive.

He seems to be leaning towards Mini-Max and that's great, but they too offer the options I mentioned above. He needs to chose these at the time of order.

This is where the visits to shops of local owners who have these machines becomes so important.

For me it provided the first hand experience not only to compare them, but to make these critical decisions on built in options. It was on one of these visits that I ruled out a full combo in favor of a saw/shaper combo and seperate jointer/planer combo.

From all the research I've done, many of the people who sell these machines a few years down the road do so in order to "upgrade" and get larger machines or more built in functionality they later wish they'd bought the first time.

Rick's poised to buy at the top of the heap for the serious hobbiest, so there's not many saw choices for him to "upgrade" to down the road unless he moves to the SCM, Martin or Format lines ($$$$$$).

That reality makes his research and ultimate decisions now all the more important.

That's my .02

Regards,

John

[Charlie Plesums]

...

• The Elite S is in fact heavier, but when you visit the saws in person at people's shops, look at them close. Felder doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration.

...

I have been following and contributing to this discussion, but I missed this comment until recently.... MiniMax doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration, nor for anything else. I have a CU410 Elite, and have been over every inch, and can assure you, no concrete. I have helped friends set up several other MiniMax machines, and no concrete in them either. I have never heard of any MiniMax machine with concrete. Could it be the Felders that have concrete?

Wherever this rumor started about MiniMax, it sure isn't true.

Charlie

[John Harden]

I have been following and contributing to this discussion, but I missed this comment until recently.... MiniMax doesn't use concrete for extra mass or to absorb vibration, nor for anything else. I have a CU410 Elite, and have been over every inch, and can assure you, no concrete. I have helped friends set up several other MiniMax machines, and no concrete in them either. I have never heard of any MiniMax machine with concrete. Could it be the Felders that have concrete?

Wherever this rumor started about MiniMax, it sure isn't true.

Charlie

I really probably should have worded that better. What I was trying to say was that Felder does not use concrete like some other manufacturers. I wasn't trying to imply that MM does. The MM's I looked at did not have concrete in them. My MM20 bandsaw doesn't have it either, but it sure as heck feels like it does every time I try to move it around the garage!!!!

Regards,

John

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am not about to hide where my loyalties lie so either you like it or you don't
In my opinion, and once again this is MY point of view based upon my own use of a router spindle, getting a special spindle or paying for a machine with some additional modification to "speed up" to the special router speed is useless. If one is buying a shaper use it for what a shaper is intended for : shaper cutters. I find it odd to buy a 5k-8k shaper or spend 10-20k on a combo unit to have the cut all come down to some $30 router bit with such small mass. Be it known if you buy a shaper that cutters cost a whole lot more than router bits...I have literally spent thousands on shaper cutters albeit I did do this professionally. If for some reason you still opt for a router spindle also be known that by varying you feed rate and using sharp bits will give you adequate results.

I would suggest to make yourself a nice router table and continue to use those "little" router bits in it so this way you keep your shaper free to do the real work. After you see how long it can take to set up a shaper and especially with a feeder (highly recommended) you will see my point.

Slider option: get as long as you can..suggest to be able to cut at least 8ft sheet

Jointer/planer cutter head: get a Tersa head....ridiculously easy to change and works flawlessly. get the widest jointer you can so this was you can angle tough grain stock to get a shear cut....plus very nice to joint after glue ups. Do not forget if you get a combo unit whatever jointer size is also your planer size

motor: suggest getting a 3 phase unit and a rotary pahse converter. # phase runs cooler, last longer and is very efficient. Also ask what the motor duty is rated at. Higher class rating can handle more use/heat

[John Harden]

Hey Richard, I heard you may have bought a Felder combo machine. I'm interested to hear if you were able to take a look at examples of each manufacturer and what your thoughts were.

What did you wind up getting? Did you go full combo or two or more seperate machines. Just curious.

Regards,

John

[Mike Heidrick]

For those folks with shaper combos, do you find taking the fence on and off to be a challenge? I just got a Laguna T1002S sliding shaper with a CI fence body and Aluminum fence faces and it has a VERY HEAVY fence that would not be fun to constantly take on and off. I can see doing it to add a tenoning hood but really only when you need too. I am not sure I would like taking it off everyday if you were using the shaper and saw in one machine. When does that shaper fence interfere with cutting at the saw? Thoughts?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I do know that the Felder 240 fence is a pretty substantial device. Personally I don't have a problem with swapping it, but it probably weighs 40# or so, and is fairly large. You can use the saw with the shaper fence on, but you are limited on width to about 6 inches width or length. I do think that swapping from saw to shaper is probably the biggest pain of any of changeovers, and needs the most attention to workflow to minimize.

There are no compromises in quality of either machines function when set up properly though, so I think that for me, the tradeoff of a bit of convienance on the changeover is well worth having a no compromise saw or shaper when I want them. Some people will disagree with that, and combos do not work for folks who cannot plan workflow. I also don't think they would work very well in a two man shop.

They are built for saving space with no compromize to machine quality, and for this they are superb. After using one for a while now though, I do actually like the more efficiant planning it inspires, and find that projects are done MUCH faster now.

BTW, you have one sweet shaper!