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Thread: Planes and a Few Things to Look For

  1. #31
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    This Caps it...

    While looking at some planes on eBay with another Creeker, this lever cap caught my eye and so did the rest of the listing. If when you read this my posts are still appearing on SMC, feel free to ask my opinion about any plane you may be looking at on the internet. Or if you can send me pictures, send me a private message (PM). My current situation allows me to look at pictures and offer my opinions, free of charge or obligation. My wording is careful here in case my situation changes. I do reserve my right to withdraw this offer if it becomes overwhelming.

    Hopefully, a piece on Stanley shoulder planes will be finished and posted soon.

    This is mostly from a listing for a #4-1/2 Stanley/Bailey plane.

    It amazes me a bit that this plane has 5 bidders. The price is low for a #4-1/2, but not that low.

    This seller is practicing some honesty, "The body and frog have been nicely repainted and rust is removed from pitted areas of sole and blade."

    Painted Lately?.jpg

    Thoughts about my painting skills do not make the words "nicely repainted" pop into my head. But come on, at least I don't paint the blade bed on the frog. Mine are mostly painted because the original is really bad. Since the paint job is for me, not as much care is taken as is required to get a top notch paint job. For top notch work, a clean area is almost required for keeping dust off the work and a drying system is helpful. Most quality coatings require some heat to set up good and hard. Most of my paint jobs have a finger print of two from my finding out the paint hasn't dried yet. Then there is the experimenting with multiple coats and not allowing dry time, etc.

    One of these days my goal is to try doing a high quality paint job, but that is another story in the future.

    On To The Lever Caps


    Nicely repainted seems like an over statement, but at least the rust was removed from the pitted areas. Pits were left behind. Around here, we have a road crew that comes around and fixes things that don't look that bad. Not sure if the lever cap also got a coat of paint, but it does sort of look that way.

    The first thing that hit me about this lever cap is the transitional curve from the wide bottom to the narrow top. Stanley lever caps have rounded transitional curves on the early caps then starting with the SW planes, the edge of the curve gets sharper.

    Front Wrong Cap.jpg

    This one looks like a "facet" cut.

    The backside is also revealing. First a Stanley cap.

    Stanley LC.jpg

    notice the round "finger" hollows at the top, the hollow areas leading down and curving around the screw do not have parallel sides.

    The lever cap on this plane has parallel sides in that area.

    Back Wrong Cap.jpg

    The screw on the chip breaker also looks wrong for a Stanley plane of this era. It looks like it is smooth edged instead of knurled. The head also looks a little tall for a Stanley.

    Of course, look at the pits in the blade and the cap iron in the pictures above. Some of the hardware on this also showed signs of pitting/cleaning. The picture of the sole was not real clear, but it also looked like pitting was present.

    But hey, the wood looks good!

    Here is another thing to watch for on the lever cap. Some sellers do not take extra pictures. Often the edge of the lever cap is hidden from view by the knob or the angle from which the picture was taken.

    For some reason a lot of people did not carry screw drivers to the job site in days of old. The first thought was to use the cast lever cap for the screw driver when the blade had to be sharpened. Most people likely learned after the first big chip or maybe the second, maybe for this guy the third time was the charm. This is one of the later lever caps with the square corner transitional curve.

    In the Chips.jpg

    Until next time,

    jim

    Being retired is wonderful...
    My wife asked me, "what are you going to do today?"
    I said, "nothing."
    She asked, "isn't that what you did yesterday?"
    I said, "yeah, but I didn't get finished."

  2. #32

    Do Not Assume......

    Jim had commented about helping a fellow creeker, and that would be me. He has looked at Lord knows how many pics, and postings, and his comments have been extremely informative, and very helpful in my quest to acquire some rust piles. Of course, there is the overwhelming emotional burden he carries for dragging me down this slope!

    Most of my experiences in this short journey have turned out very well. I am beginning to accumulate a good stock of planes to fettle, and will end up with some very good users. But, when one engages long enough in this game, the lessons learned start to pile up.

    Jim and I agreed that it might be helpful to post this experience -

    The case of “assume” – the unasked question.

    We all have heard and know so well what “assuming” does to “u” and “me.” For those that do not know that old adage, PM me!

    A Stanley, type 11, 4-½ came up for auction on the bay. This was the description of the plane in question -

    STANLEY # 4 1/2 HEAVY DUTY WIDE HAND PLANE 3 PAT. DATES KNOB IS OKAY, TOTE IS BROKE ON THE TOP AND NEAR THE BOTTOM, THIS IS VERY DIRTY, BUT I SEE NO CRACK OR REPAIRS TO CAST MEDAL.


    And, this was the pic of the sole -


    There was some obvious discoloration around the mouth, so I pulled this pic into Photoshop Elements, and increased the contrast, and lightened it to see if I could tell more about it. There appeared to be rust that had formed, but it did not appear to be bad enough that Evaporust would not take care of it. It was not a high-resolution pic, and getting good detail was difficult.

    I DID NOT ASK THE SELLER ANY QUESTIONS!! I “assumed” that I had reached the correct assessment of this condition.

    I bought the plane for $37, plus shipping. There were 10 bids, from 9 bidders including me. Upon receipt, this was the actual appearance of the sole –

    4.5 a.jpg
    4.5 b.jpg


    Someone had taken either an angle grinder, or grinding wheel to the area around the mouth. The plane is not salvageable, and is junk. Other than salvaging the knob, and other parts – it is worthless.

    The seller has a 3-day return policy. I indicated my desire to return the plane, and explained that I felt the seller should reimburse my shipping cost – both ways. It seems that this would be similar to a latent crack and should be disclosed in the description. None of that negates my failure to fully inquire about the discoloration on the pic of the sole.

    Fortunately, the seller did the right thing, and agreed to refund all costs. I have returned the plane.

    The moral to this story is to ASK QUESTIONS and assume nothing. I trusted the seller (who had a good history) to accurately describe the plane. His description was accurate - just not complete. I did not perform due diligence on this buy.


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post

    Someone had taken either an angle grinder, or grinding wheel to the area around the mouth. The plane is not salvageable, and is junk. Other than salvaging the knob, and other parts – it is worthless.
    Heh. I recognize those pics. I suspect you and I were fighting over that one. Better you than me

  4. #34
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    John,

    Thanks for adding this to the thread.

    My thoughts about selling on eBay is that anything I see that may be a problem should be disclosed in my description. The seller in this case has sold other planes and I found a case where he recently bought one. This and some of his descriptions indicates he is not a neophyte in the realm of planes.

    As the old sayings go, a half truth can still be a whole lie. Or an omission of fact can be a revelation of deception.

    I do not foresee buying too many more tools through eBay, but it makes me feel like one needs to come up with a list of every conceivable question to send to the seller of any potential item that may get my bid.

    jim

  5. #35
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    John,

    Too bad about the 4 1/2. The seller did the right thing by refunding the shipping costs. It is fortunate that the driving need on the bay for positive customer feedback fosters an environment of positive customer service. That, at least, has been my experience.

    Now, you can start hunting for another Type 11 - a very nice vintage!

    -Jerry

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Radtke View Post
    Heh. I recognize those pics. I suspect you and I were fighting over that one. Better you than me
    Matt, wish you had won, but I was glad to be able to take the hit for you!! I am trying to decide if my "parts box" is gaining faster than my fleet of planes

    Jerry, I do like the type 11s, but I have to fight Matt for all of them However, I am amazed at the continual flow of hundreds of old Stanleys that come up on the bay - looks like enough for everyone to eventually get what they want.

  7. #37
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    Type 11's

    John,

    I'm working on a complete set (minus 1 and 2?) of 11's. Also a complete set of Millers Falls. Generally speaking, the MF planes can stand a bit more tweaking, but turn into solid performers. Several comments by fellow Creekers opine that as appreciation for the MF planes increase, so will the price!

    -Jerry

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Keeton View Post
    Matt, wish you had won, but I was glad to be able to take the hit for you!! I am trying to decide if my "parts box" is gaining faster than my fleet of planes

    Jerry, I do like the type 11s, but I have to fight Matt for all of them However, I am amazed at the continual flow of hundreds of old Stanleys that come up on the bay - looks like enough for everyone to eventually get what they want.
    I suspect you and I were fighting over another one, this time 180392910591. And this time, it was my turn to get burned slightly--just got 'er today with a 2" blade a chipbreaker. D'oh. Haven't decided if I should and how much to complain to the seller yet. . .

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Radtke View Post
    I suspect you and I were fighting over another one, this time 180392910591. And this time, it was my turn to get burned slightly--just got 'er today with a 2" blade a chipbreaker. D'oh. Haven't decided if I should and how much to complain to the seller yet. . .
    Not sure about complaining doing any good, he claims not to know about rating planes. He does sell a lot of tools for not knowing about them.

    The pictures do show that the blade is not only the wrong size, it is much newer than the plane. I was thinking the front knob was wrong, but some of the late type 11s did have a tall knob. The chipped and broken tote looks a little light for rosewood.

    Other than that, if it is in good shape, get a new blade and chip breaker and go to town with it.

    This is another listing that offers another, "what is wrong with this picture" lesson:

    Picture 2.jpg

    The nickel plating on the fence is bright and shiny. Especially for a knob with that many nicks and look at the thumb screw. It sure is beat looking for such a shiny fence.

    Picture 3.jpg

    Looking at another picture, one can see the detail looks a little mushy. Look especially at the screws holding he rosewood to the fence. Looks like rust under the plating. Almost looks sprayed on, but I am not familiar with a spray paint being that shiny.

    Also, this is a type 10 or earlier fence (no fine adjustment screw) mixed with a type 11 or later main casting (rib on top by the blade).

    Besides, the sliding section is missing the knicker.

    Fortunately for the unsuspecting public, this one has a starting price in the range of what might be expected for a #45 that came with blades.

    jim

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    The pictures do show that the blade is not only the wrong size, it is much newer than the plane. I was thinking the front knob was wrong, but some of the late type 11s did have a tall knob. The chipped and broken tote looks a little light for rosewood.

    Other than that, if it is in good shape, get a new blade and chip breaker and go to town with it.
    I've been looking for an excuse to buy a Hock blade. Now I've got my excuse. As far as the tote, it does indeed appear to be rosewood.

  11. #41
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    As far as the tote, it does indeed appear to be rosewood.
    I am terrible when it comes to identifying wood unless it is oak or some kind of pine.

    Looks like it will be a good plane once it is up and running.

    jim

  12. #42
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    Addition of Stanley Shoulder Planes

    This is just to link to information about Stanley shoulder planes.

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=119301

    jim
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Often fences have a user added slot for the blade. This was probably done by someone who did not really have an idea about using the plane. There are two holes in the fence assembly that allow the fence to ride lower than the blade when the plane is being used for rabbeting or similar work.
    What is the saying about things on the internet stay around forever to embarrass us?

    My new understanding of why some users cut slots in their fences makes me want to apologize to the users of times past. They surely had a better idea of how to use this plane than me.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #44
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    "Old" is indeed relative. I go to a lot of antique stores with my wife. She always points out "old furniture", which is inevitable from the 1940s. Not old by a long shot, at least to me.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  15. #45
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    My gosh. Jim sent me here from my post crying about my first and bad online purchase.

    This thread is gold, and I now enter this field better informed. I also see a ton of other good threads in here.

    Jim, thank you a million.

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