Planes and a Few Things to Look For

[Jim Koepke]

Excuse me if I am repeating something but I would add a magnet to the list of tools to have on hand while hunting.

I've come across brass plated steel and aluminum frogs.

I have three Sargents and a couple of Millers Falls, all of which are easily as good as my Stanleys. The Sargents in particular have better irons.

Doh! I didn't think about the magnet. A small screw driver on my key ring is magnetized and gets used for that.

A person I used to work with/for was a blacksmith and had a small assortment of things he always carried with him for testing and inspecting things he found. Some of my hunting habits were learned from him.

I think Sargent planes had the "Bedrock" set up before it was adopted by Stanley. Not sure of this. As I have said before, many users feel Sargent built a better plane. In my opinion, the Union plane I owned was slightly better than the Stanley planes of the same size. Stanley planes are good planes, others are undoubtably better. In the end, it is what they can do for the person using them.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

This piece looks like light rust that will clean up without leaving deep pits or craters. It looks like the plane was use for a couple of passes or slid across a surface with rust on the sole.

Light Rust.jpg

If I saw this in the flesh, a bit of abrasion would be used on the darker areas just to make sure.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

OK, for those of you who just can't get enough of this junk, here is some more...

Planes that are junk that is.

One thing to look for when buying a plane is cracks. Cracks can be a deal breaker anywhere on a plane, but especially be aware of cracks around the mouth. Anyone can drop a plane and cause a crack or chip in a place that does not really matter. A few of my planes have chunks missing from the side rails at the toe or heel. It doesn't matter for a user. A file will take off any sharp spots. At the toe, on the side where the heel of the hand rests, it can be more comfortable than an unaltered plane.

Cracks at the mouth are usually a sign of rough use or even abuse. Low angle block planes can crack at the mouth when the plane is taking too thick a shaving. Bench planes can have this happen from having the frog set improperly and the lever cap screw being set too tight. Planes from high school shop classes are notorious for being abused. Teen agers have a lot of extra energy and hormones running around their system and while they are being held captive in a shop class, they will take it out on anything and everything. Sometime just plain old fashioned inexperience can be the culprit.

Cracked 98.jpg

Now you see it...

98 W:depth stop.jpg

Now you don't...

This is a typical crack pattern in a side rabbet plane. It can be from too much torque on the blade hold down screw.

Notice the vertical groove next to the hole with nothing in it?

This is for a depth stop. If it has accommodations for a depth stop, it should come with a depth stop. I have not seen anywhere near as many depth stops as I have seen side rabbets missing them. I am not sure of even seeing one depth stop up for auction. If one needs to make some money, coming up with replacement depth stops and screws for these might be a money making venture.

If it has a depth stop, get a look under the depth stop to make sure there are not any cracks being hidden. The John Walter's book says the depth stop did not appear until 1929-1935. Sorry, I have a pair that look to be made before 1919 with depth stops. Hey, if we don't make mistakes, how are we supposed to learn. Besides, maybe he will come out with a revised edition of his book. Everyone is hoping for that, heck, I might buy more than one copy.

If you are going to buy a pair of these, even if you have to do it one at a time, make sure to ask the seller if the screw that holds the front piece on can be removed and the nose piece removed. For some reason, these screws freeze up and are impossible to remove. I have seen this on ones that look to be mint in the original box. Being able to flip the front nose is an important function when making stopped dados. Make sure the blade is seated before tightening the blade holding screw. If it is not bedded and snaps against the base when the screw is being torqued, it is possible to crack the metal. It is very thin at this point.
From my experience, these are a pain to use without a depth stop. That is why it is my belief that Stanley added depth stops well before making them for 30+ years.

The depth stop for the 98 & 99 are different. The thumb screw that holds the blade and the thumb screw that holds the depth stop are also different lengths and usually have different size wings, though they have the same threads.

jim

More to come...

[John Keeton]

Jim, this thread is a treasure of info, and needs to be marked as a sticky - or, at the very least, included in the archived stuff. Thanks, again, for the significant effort here.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, this thread is a treasure of info, and needs to be marked as a sticky - or, at the very least, included in the archived stuff. Thanks, again, for the significant effort here.

Thanks for the complement. I was thinking of PMing Zahid when this is finished. Of course, when out in my shop today it came to me to also include a page on the #45. Then, there may be others of interest. My thoughts were that I'm going to run out of planes to look at pretty soon. Then another real train wreck was found on eBay. My intention is to bring that one up after the next post on cracks around the mouth. It is almost a laugher, hopefully no one is going to bid on it.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Some cracks are difficult to see. This #4 plane was in a shop for $7.50. The shop was in Oregon, so there was no sales tax. The parts were worth that much so I took a chance. It did have a bit of rust and pitting. The tote was OK and my thought was the tote was worth the price. Besides, it was a type 6 and a day earlier I had scored a 4-1/2 type 6 also in Oregon. There were a few other planes, a #140 and an early #65-1/2, in the shop I was buying, so the guy took a few bucks off the total.

Notice the difference between the two pictures. The only difference is the lighting.

What Crack.jpg

Different Light.jpg

A shift in the lighting can change a lot of things. The first image looks pretty good. The second reveals a lot of the pitting shadows. The crack detail is taken from the second image.

This crack was not visible until the sole was lapped. It is very small and does not seem to affect the use. It is probably better to pass on something like this unless you want parts. This is what convinced me to carry a little sandpaper with me. In fact, tucking a small piece in the wallet may be a good idea.

This Crack.png

The crack is barely visible in the photograph that shows it the best. The close up was actually a screen capture from using the system software to enlarge and capture the image. This is something I use all the time when looking at images on the internet. If you have a MAC and want to do this it is done by holding down the Command, Option and + key all at the same time. Move the curser to the edges of the screen to move the image. To get back to normal hold down the Command, Option and - key. To capture the picture, Shift, Command 4 will produce a cross hair. Move this to the start corner, click and drag to the opposite corner wanted then release. A PNG file should appear on the desktop with a tittle like Picture 1. The enlarge feature is very handy when looking at things on eBay and other sites.
If someone can tell us how to do this on a PC it will surely be much appreciated by all the PC users. At least by me, sometimes I need to use a PC.

5-1:4 Cracks.jpg

Here is a plane from a high school shop class. Those cracks look worse when holding the plane in your hands. At least one eBayer is always photographing their wares at strange angles. Maybe they are also taking pictures for an art photography class or something.

5-1:4 Art Shot.jpg

The usually do not reveal much information about the condition of what is being sold. One time they were asked for other pictures. The reply was those were the only pictures available. Strange, most of their auctions have a half dozen or more artsy (the next word that comes to mind may not be allowed) pictures, yet there aren't any straight on? Come on!!!

jim

I have seen a train wreck and the next plane actually looks worse...

[Jim Koepke]

This is what the listing said, first the title.

ANTIQUE 1910 STANLEY BAILEY PLANE NO. 5 CORRUGATED RARE

Then the write up.

WOW! WHAT*A FIND!**This is what i believe to be*a nice vintage Stanley/Bailey No. 5 Plane in good condition, has been used and has some light rusting in spots, I took plenty of pics., it could be polished up pretty nice if you are a collector or used the way it is,*It measures 14 X 2 3/8 inches. *It also has the corrugated sole. It says " bailey "*on the front.*It says Stanley the blade holder. By the thumb wheel, under it says U.S.PAT APR 19.-10*This tool works as far as i can tell in every way. the front wood handle is in great shape, the back wood handle has a crack in the middle and a chip on the top, (see pictures). please see pictures as they are a big part of this description, i am not an expert on antique tools but will answer all questions as best i can and welcome additional information!! I HAVE OTHER ANTIQUE PLANES ON AUCTION AND IN MY EBAY STORE AND WILL COMBINE SHIPPING!! IF YOU WOULD LIKE ADDITIONAL PICTURES PLEASE ASK!!

This seller has over 500 auctions active at this time. Almost all have buy it now prices. The buy it now on this item is only $45 + shipping.
This person is not lying when they say they are not an expert on antique tools. Surely if they knew about planes, they would have included information that this was a Sweet Hart era plane in hopes of getting more bidders.

This plane is rust ugly. "has some light rusting in spots"? I would hate to see what this person considers moderate or heavy rust.

Picture 7.jpg

This is really bad rust, it looks to be scale in places. Scale rust is the kind that takes flakes of the base metal with it when it falls off.

Picture 6.jpg

This detail serves to show what actual rust damage may look like in a photograph. Look along the front edge of the casting. Some of the rusted areas appear to have metal missing. Same with the side rail, especially on the left.

Almost everything is wrong with this plane. There is a hang hole in the toe. That was almost missed due to my amazement that someone actually found this and paid to list it on eBay. "the front wood handle is in great shape." Well, at least the half of it that is there is in OK shape. As far as they can tell, this plane works in every way? I have made shavings with some pretty bad blades, but the blades all had enough left to put a bevel on them.

Picture 9.jpg

By the way, the cap iron is wrong for this plane. This one has a darkened back. That was done away with after type 11 if my memory is serving well.

It is difficult to see for sure, but the cleaner of the two frog screws looks to be incorrect. It doesn't look to be the screw that is missing at the tote.
Picture 8.jpg

Picture 5.jpg
Finally, what train wreck of a plane wouldn't be complete without a lever cap with a big chip in the lower edge. One side of it can be seen in the image with the frog.
Can only include five pictures in a post. This plane could have used a couple more to show how bad it really is, but one is really enough. Hopefully though it will help folks to learn a bit more about rust and how it looks in pictures. Surely, no one would take this home if they saw it live. It would have to be real cheap for me to consider it for the few good parts. But then again, I would have to dispose of the bad parts.

jim

[David Keller NC]

"If someone can tell us how to do this on a PC it will surely be much appreciated by all the PC users. At least by me, sometimes I need to use a PC."

There are a couple of simple, quick-and-dirty ways to do this on a PC. With the operating system, one can hold down "ctrl-alt" and press the "prt scn" button that's on most keyboards. This will capture a screen shot, and you can then open something like MS Word or just about any photo editing software and select edit>paste to paste a copy into the document. This method, however, is probably the least preferred because it captures a bitmap that is dependent on the resolution of the current display mode - in other words, you can lose a substantial amount of detail.

Alternatively, one can right-click a photo on a web page in I.E., and select either "save picture as" or "copy". The save-picture-as will allow you to save the photo to a file on your hard-drive, which you can then manipulate with photo-editing software to change the contrast, brightness, zoom, etc... The "copy" selection will do basically the same thing as the "prt scn" function, except that the full resolution of the photo as displayed on the web site will be copied to the clipboard.

[Tom Godley]

Tons of great info - Thanks

[Richard Dooling]

One great thread. Thanks Jim. I agree this needs to go into the archives.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks David, I already knew about one of those methods. On the Mac, there are actually 4 system capture methods. Shift, Command 3 takes the entire screen. Add the Control key and it is held on the clip board without making a permanent file. Shift, Command 4 allows the user to select the rectangular area wanted. Adding the Control key again puts it to the clip board. For taking a photo off the internet, most of the time the image can be click dragged to the place one wants to store the image. They all seem to work with the magnification feature.

I have not tried lately, but it wouldn't do video capture from DVDs. There are also some hosted web sites that do not allow for the drag capture method.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

A few things to look for on a Stanley #45 will be covered in this post.

In the group photo, the fences in the fore ground are both of the type which had the knob threaded on to a boss on the fence assembly. In a picture like this, there is no way to tell that one of the knobs is in good condition and has good threads and the other is broken and glued back in place. The glued knob will not come off. This style fence could be installed "backwards" on the rods to extend its reach. Note that the metal is smooth for this purpose.

Group Photo.jpg

The two plane bodies are different. Look at the area above the blade holder wing nut. On the newer (type 16) there is a rib for added strength. Notice that both of these have the slitter depth gauge and the proper screw to hold it in place, a shouldered thumb screw. If a slitter were in place, a point might be visible at the bottom of the depth stop or a second piece of metal could be visible behind the depth stop.

Notice the front depth gauge has a slotted lock screw. It should be the same as the slotted screws holding the rods in place. From this angle, it can not be determined if the knickers are in place. The front depth stop hides them. All of the Stanley #45s use the clover leaf style knicker. They are often listed for sell on eBay. The Stanley #55 (and possibly others) used straight knickers until the SW era. I do not know the exact year. When looking at #55s with an eye toward buying an extra main stock or skate, I always look for the clover leaf knickers. The straight knickers are not offered for sale as often.

Another bit of information... the thumb screws and slotted screws are all 1/4 - 28 size threads. This does not include the fence, fine adjustment screws. The thumb hold on the different screws varies. The #55 has a "shoe" for the central skate that is often missing. The screw on them is missing even more often. The screw that holds the plate in place for the blade lock nut on a #45 and #55 is the same thread as used on the shoe. It may be a thread or two short, but it does the job.

Side Image.jpg

In the side image, it is possible to see the knicker is missing if one knows where to look. What is more important are the two screws on the fence. The one at the front is the second most often missing part on a the #45, right behind the slitter blade. This screw was located above the central adjustment screw for a short while. I am not sure if the same thread was used after the change, in pictures, the screw does look different. It did not work well in that position and was moved to the front fence rod to lock the adjustable fence. This screw keeps the fence from flexing in use. Also note in this view the auxiliary depth stop screw can be seen under the fence holding thumb screw.

Front Detail.jpg

The detail picture again shows all the screws in place. Also notice the red piece between the metal and rose wood. The fence on the #45 may need to be shimmed in order to be held parallel to the main body.

Often fences have a user added slot for the blade. This was probably done by someone who did not really have an idea about using the plane. There are two holes in the fence assembly that allow the fence to ride lower than the blade when the plane is being used for rabbeting or similar work.

[kazek supinski]

i have just started collecting planes this is very good timeing thank you very much for the info.

[Jim Koepke]

Often on eBay, planes are sold in groups. This may be done by someone just trying to clear out a garage or it could be someone who knows these will not sell by themselves.

Buying a group of planes can be a money saver. It can also be a very bad deal. My worst deal on eBay was a lot of two planes. They were beat up planes from a high school shop class. Of course, the seller didn't say anything about where they came from. Another of life's lessons learned.

Recently, there have been large groups of planes being offered by a seller that specializes in selling of educational surplus. Hopefully I have made my opinion on what to expect from "teenager abuse syndrome" very clear.

Note: my original thought was to do this with one picture. Something appeared that made me change that. Time was not taken to change the text. So, that is why it may seem incorrect in places. That is also why, if a seller will not provide pictures to clear up questions, an auction should be avoided.

This particular grouping does have more pictures, but just one is being used here to show how much one can see from a single view. Often with a group like this, one picture is all that will be shown. OK, something about this listing made me decide to add one more picture at the end.

The last picture in this listing does show a nasty chunk missing from the mouth of the #3. My feelings are mixed on this. What does this indicate? Does the seller know enough about planes to put this in as a gesture of look at this, I am being honest by showing this? A lot of the pictures do not reveal much else about these planes.

Of course, with one Bedrock plane in the mix, the bidding is climbing most likely based on that.

Image quality is good, a back drop is used, this person knows at least a bit about taking pictures. They have experience doing this.
The write up is minimal and includes the, "not being a woodworker myself... sold as is as shown..."

This always gets my senses tingling.

So, here is what can be seen in just one picture.

The Group.jpg

The far plane, a #3 has a replacement blade, notice rounded corners. Two other things do not go together on this plane, a short knob and the large brass depth adjuster wheel.

None of the views of the #3 indicate much else except for the one showing the damage that make this a parts plane. When buying parts planes, it is good to be able to date them so it can be determined if they are parts one needs or if they will just end up in the box of too much junk.

The center plane is a #605, I do not know enough to know if this is actually an early Bedrock. I am not sure if anyone else used this same numbering system or if it was Stanley only.

It has a cracked front knob. It has the wrong lever cap. It also has a large depth adjuster which is not correct for this plane. I have replaced a lot of the adjusters on my planes just because the larger nut is a little easier to adjust on the fly. What all this might indicate is a put together plane or what is often referred to as a Frankenplane.

A little more subtle here is the difference between the screw at the tote's toes on this plane and the #5 on the right. That plane also has some problems. Notice the rivet above the screw on the lever cap. That is not a feature of a Stanley lever cap. The knob and handle are also not correct for a Stanley plane of the date/type this one would be.

As is, the #605 might be a good user. To bring it back to original for a collectable user might cost more than buying a type correct #605.

My other thoughts on planes like this is the more incorrect parts one can see makes me wonder how many incorrect OR MISSING parts are hidden.

Question on the Side.jpg

Looking a little more at this listing, one of the images popped out at me. The picture is "pretty," but it looks like the side of the frog could be a ogee sided frog and not a straight sided frog. The angle of the picture makes it impossible to determine for sure. If this is the case, this is a "Frankenplane" of the worst type, one that likely would not work. The early, round sided, Bedrock planes used screws instead of pins to hold the frog to the bed. This might make it possible to put an incorrect (Bailey) frog in the plane.

Also almost lost in the "pretty" picture is the repair to the tote.

I would want some more pictures that revealed a bit more before placing a bid on this group.

jim

[Joe McMahon]

Jim, excellent post! This definitely needs to be a sticky.