A question that needs to be asked...

[Joe Tonich]

I think some clearing up is in order...

In my post I never mentioned slamming, piling on, or destroying anyones self esteem. I was talking about even tho liking a piece, being able to offer opinions of other design features that may make it even more appealing. Not shoving it down their throats, just giving them something else to think about. Just because your just beginning doesn't mean you don't have great ideas. Guys that have never turned before can offer valuable insight into design features and forms. Heck, the people who buy them probably never turned anything, but they could look at something and offhandedly mention something that will stick in your mind. Something that you might find interesting and try...and like it better than the one you thought was the best you could ever do. You never know, thats why even tho you just started turning or have turned for 30 years, your opinion could count in making someone better in their design ideas. Don't be afraid to let your opinion fly, and let the recipient do with it what he/she will, just be sincere and polite. At least thats how I feel about it.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, I think the bottom line is that it's perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions, critique, etc., as long as the original poster requests it. That's pretty much the normal "convention" here at SMC and most other online sites that feature turnings. It works pretty well, too.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Barry Stratton]

Joe, I think the bottom line is that it's perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions, critique, etc., as long as the original poster requests it. That's pretty much the normal "convention" here at SMC and most other online sites that feature turnings. It works pretty well, too.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Not picking on you Jim, but,based on your and others posts on this thread, if the original poster does not ask for suggestions or comments or critiques..then whats left??? All I see left to respond with is "attaboy".........

I don't post much anymore (life is hectic) but always assumed posting pictures of my work would prompt folks to share their opinion of it (good and bad) whether I specifically asked for it or not.

[Jim Underwood]

I'm a little late in responding to this, but here goes...

I'm with those posters who say that you should not critique unless it's asked for.

I really liked the "sticky" on that subject on this forum, which essentially says....

If a critique is asked for, then don't just slam the piece, sandwich the criticism between things you like about it or are good about it.

Something I thought about after you asked this question, is that some folks are just in this to have fun, and have no pretensions of being artists whatsoever. Their forms will pretty much stay the same no matter what. And then if you do offer criticism, even constructive criticism, their feelings may be hurt, and they may be discouraged from participating in the forum, and even from turning. I'm sure I don't want that.

I'd rather give everyone attaboys than discourage someone from this great hobby.

That being said, I personally would like constructive criticism on things I post. I would love to improve on what I'm doing. And of course... I like the positive attention as well as anyone. So all in all, I think the "sticky" is right. Balance constructive criticism with the positive comments as well.

[Cody Colston]

I may not always ask for it but I definitely prefer getting critique on anything I post. Now, I WILL consider the source of any critique when deciding what to file away for future reference. I tend to discount suggestions from members who rarely post pics of their work or whose work is IMHO inferior to my own. In other words, show me, don't just tell me. But, the critique is still welcome even if it may not be accepted.

Also, if I don't like a piece, I generally just withhold comment rather than give them an ingenuous attaboy. With a new turner, I may encourage them but I certainly don't try to "blow smoke" with anyone. That does not help anyone get better.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Joe.

I agree that CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is important for improvement. However, most of us are not expert photographers and a lot of flaws don't show up. The BEST way to look at the piece in person.

Lately, most of the work I've seen, has been very good. If someone wants a critique and I see something to improve, not just something I don't like(beauty is in the eye of the beholder), I will send a PM.

Also, While there are some here that are eminently qualified to offer critiques. I don't always believe that I am experienced enough to look at a picture and decide what needs to be improved.

Bruce

[Kim Ford]

In my view everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to an opinion. The determining factor for this or any forum that I am a willing to be a part of is:

Are the members willing to give an honest opinion without attacking the work or the person?

If the members are, then the artist needs to be able to accept that opinion as exactly what it is "an opinion" and grow from it. That may mean ignoring it, embracing it, or somewhere in between.

For me it truly means something when a turner I respect, (from both the work they have posted and the responses they have made to other posts), makes a comment because I consider the source and try to learn from it.

Do remember that everyone who posts a picture here has made the effort to actually take tool in hand and present that tool to a whirling chunk of log. That's a huge step and committment on their part and the only honest way to swim in this pool. To effectively discount someone's effort by attacking the work or the person is just not acceptable behavior.

I post very little, mainly because I just don't get the time to turn that much, but when I do post I truly want your honest opinion. It is then mine to deal with.

[Curt Fuller]

I'm not trying to kick a dead horse, stir up the hornet's nest, or otherwise create havoc. But I ran across this quote that I felt fit this thread.......

When you see yourself doing something badly and nobody's bothering to tell you anymore, that's a very bad place to be. Your critics are the ones telling you they still love you and care. (Randy Pausch)

[Wally Dickerman]

I've been visiting this site off and on for quite a while. In reading this thread I'm seeing a lot of comments about "trashing" and "piling on" etc. I have to say that I really can't remember ever seeing any of that. Most of the critiques are about changing a curve or making a finial smaller or using a smaller foot or whatever. Nothing that I would call offensive. Could it be that there are some fragile egos out there?

Am I missing something?

Wally

[David Walser]

No, Wally, you're not missing anything. As internet forums go, this is one of the best behaved and courteous I've ever encountered. Still, when you're new at something (or even if you're not) even well-intentioned, constructive, criticism of "your baby" can seem harsh.

So, yes, some (all?) of us are, at times, overly sensitive. Instead of being grateful that someone took their time to give us their honest feedback, we take offense. However, the alternative -- getting no real feedback -- is far worse. The lack of feedback slows the learning process. Most of the posters to this forum seem to understand that getting honest criticism is worth whatever pain it might cause. Most of the posters on this forum also understand that there's no reason to make the process more painful than it need be, which is a very good thing.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Wally,

This has already been addressed in the past and there is a sticky on this forum concerning it.


IF a member wants critiques, all they have to do is put that in the post. Simple.


In the past there was a group of people who did, in fact, get a little rough and pile on IMHO.

So what could be easier? You want critiques...ask for it....you don't want critiques....you don't.

You are thickskinned ask for it....you aren't don't ask for a critique.

What is the problem with that?

[Brian Brown]

I'm seeing a lot of comments about "trashing" and "piling on"
Wally

I have no doubt what "Trashing” is, but what exactly is "Piling on". It seems to me when I get a suggestion about changing a curve, or removing a flat spot, I may or may not agree. If more people agree with the need for change, I will take another look. The more people that feel a specific change should be made, the more likely I am to try and see their point. For example, one of my early pieces that I finally felt I had gotten perfect, was a vase with a flat spot where there should have been a continuing curve. Somebody mentioned it, and I couldn't see it. I dismissed the comment. After several others agreed that the flat spot needed to be changed, I got out a ruler to prove my curve was continuous. Gol dang.... they were right. I just couldn't see it, and never would have gone looking if the extra comments weren't there. The comments don't have to be viscous, just a simple I agree with so and so about the curve.

I have been an artist (in another medium) for 25 years, and have received thousands of critiques on my work. In that time I have grown a skin thick enough to deflect bullets. Somebody’s negative comments don’t affect me, and I crave constructive comments. That is why I post my pictures. I have gotten so many of the constructive comments here at SMC, and I thank all of you that have made them. I can’t remember ever having received a bullet. So back to my original question, how is the correct way to say you agree with someone’s comment without appearing to be “Piling on”?

[Brian Novotny]

there's a great book on shapes and very informative finishing info called "woodturning projects....a worksop guide to shapes" I'm a self taugt turner too and you kind of have to be critical yourself......if you like it forget what the gallery has to say because there are many woodturning galleries all geared toward a different audience. I would suggest going to the libraray and getting books on antique pottery, art deco, ancient greek forms, and so on. If you like it forget the negatives, if you're on the fence, then maybe listen more, but stick to your guns and if you like it someone else will too. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and when I was an antique pottery dealer there were people that paid hundereds of dollars for things I didn't like at all. Sometimes I like to leave the tenon on a piece for a few days and take several looks at a piece and sometimes I decide I don't like this or that and it can still be changed before finishing the bottom.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

Nobody needs 49 different methods of caustic comments saying the same thing about one's turnings. It can become like a school yard gang of bullies and has in the past.

It's simple....You want critiques...put "Critiques Welcomed" in your posting.

You don't want critiques....don't ask for them.

[Brian Novotny]

Brian,

Nobody needs 49 different methods of caustic comments saying the same thing about one's turnings. It can become like a school yard gang of bullies and has in the past.

It's simple....You want critiques...put "Critiques Welcomed" in your posting.

You don't want critiques....don't ask for them.

What you are talking about Sir, I have NO idea. It sounds like greek to me....are you refering to something I did, or this post?

What it sounds like most is that you're slamming ME, possibly in ways I've done to others???? Which is just as bad. Don't tell me not to do something and then turn around and do it to me! Notice I'm not 'slamming" you. please explain.