Are we professional craftsmen dinosaurs?

[Larry Edgerton]

In response to a discussion in a sports car forum I frequent on the merits of IKEA cabinets I posted this......


Originally Posted by me
There is a whole other option that you are not considering that is economically the most bang for your buck, and often will get you the best cabinets for the dollar. You will notice that I did say the "Best". If you want the most quantity for your dollar one of the box stores or Ikea will still be your best bet, and if you don't know the difference it really doesn't matter.

But.....

There are a lot of real cabinet makers out there in the old tradition that know how to design and build a kitchen that works, not just today but as long as the house is standing. They take a little effort to find as they can not afford to advertise, do not have splashy showrooms, may not even have a computor program that shows three D views, no 800 number, you know, all of the things you have been trained to look for. Consider the trained computor cabinet "expert" at the local box store. As a direct value to your cabinets what do they add? Cost. That is all they bring to the table that a real cabinetmaker does not supply. So you are paying for advertising and a sales commission and still have no added value. So to be competitive they cut corners, using junk that is designed to impress in the showroom and last as long as it takes to be out of warranty.

Instead a craftsman spends a lifetime learning the trade, and instead of spending 33%, the average percent of product cost spent on promotion, they buy more tools so that they can do a better job. What a concept! You actually shake the hand of the guy that makes your cabinets! A guy or girl that actually knows that a plane is not always at an airport, can install what he builds, lives in the area so he cares about his/her reputation, helps out with the local Little League, pays local taxes, and if you have a problem can just jump in the truck and stop over! That would be an awesome marketing concept!

I , in case you have not guessed, am one of those frusterated craftsmen who can not compete with the glitter, but constantly see overpriced crap that is so far from heirloom quality that it is laughable. I often see kitchens that cost 33% more than what I could build them for, but mine would be real wood with superior craftsmanship. Actually not superior craftsmanship, craftsmanship period. There is no craftsmanship involved at all in any of the box store crap. But hey, if its good enough for you who an I to argue? Homes have become just a series of trinkets checked off of a list, a competition to see who can have the most boxes checked, and so we have thousands of square miles of suburban sprawl with ugly houses with no particular style, just boxes with all the options. I think we have created the new urban blight. Through advertising we have a need to have more, not better.

Whatever........




This was one of the responses, and what amazed me there was no argument. The fellow that posted this is a dentist, so he is not poor, and he lives in an expensive area, so the attitude amazes me. Further that most if not all agreed with his position makes me see why so many of us that are professionals are struggling of late.



This is his reply......

IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. The local master craftsman will be dead in 20 years when your doors start falling off, drawer slides fail, and you can't fit in the next generation of appliances. None of the facings I have used from IKEA had melamine. Instead, they had thick wood veneer, or solid oak.
IKEA Kitchens are not so much a matter of 'craftmanship,' but engineering. The craftsman-built kitchens are solid and have longeivity, but are really like building an airplane out of spruce and fabric. We've long left those days behind. The engineering in IKEA drawer units make a mockery of the old wooden drawer slides of yore. I'm not saying there isn't a place for that kind of simple old-fashioned work in a pure period home or reproduction, just as an old Ferrari should always have carburetors and an old Jaguar should have wire wheels. I mean, how many of us can justify 250K for a custom built car, when a factory built one is more reliable and econommical? But to be real, it is time to embrace a new generation of technology that cuts out the unnecessary waste of hand built custom cabinetry for 90% of surburban homes. It's a case of overbuilt skilled trade work versus professional engineering. IKEA also has an excellent team working on aesthetic design that makes a mockery of other big box kitchens, which gives them a left up in my book - but may not be to your taste. Some of the folks mocking IKEA kitchens on here would be hard-pressed to discern that the kitchen was made by IKEA (without looking at the logos on the hardware).


I had no response.......




This illustrates what we are up against, the millions of advertising dollars that we have to compete against are succeding. I know that we are not comparable, and I know we have all of the same hardware and accesories, but I also know I can not afford to advertise at this time at all, and when time were good I don't need to. I did when I started out on my own, and all it brought me were tire kickers looking for hand crafted at a Home Depot price.

How do we fight this perception? The forum in question is populated by many professionals that make a lot more money than I, and yet it was almost universally agreed that Ikea and box stores provide a product that is all one needs.

[Cody Colston]

Maybe not be dinosaurs yet but definitely on the endangered species list.

[Wilbur Pan]

I don't think that you're going to win the longevity argument If Ikea is going to warranty their cabinets for 25 years, then they will last that long. And yes, they do use real wood veneers.

But here's where your friend's argument begins to break down. With Ikea, there's no ability to custom fit cabinets. Most of their cabinet lines are 30" or 36" wide modules. If you have a wall 80" long, you're stuck with dead (read: wasted) space. You are also locked into a single counter height, which is not ideal if you are on the taller or shorter end of the scale.

Although the Ikea veneers are made of real wood, a craftsman made cabinet will look better, as the seams between the veneers on an Ikea cabinet won't be as tight. Alternatively, the craftsman would use solid wood to make a cabinet door or face frame, bypassing the veneer seam issue entirely.

The joints used in a craftsman made cabinet should likewise be tighter than on an Ikea cabinet. If the Ikea cabinet is put together with their typical MDF connecting mechanism, the joint will hold, but there will be more sagging over time, which probably won't be covered by the warranty.

Grain matching and selection will be a matter of luck with an Ikea cabinet. I'm sure that colorwise, things will match, but if the veneers are laid next to each other to cover a panel, no thought will be made to make sure that the grain patterns are put together in a pleasing way.

And a craftsman has the same access to the types of drawer slides that are used in Ikea cabinets -- and better.

Now, does any of this affect the function of the cabinet? Except for the ability to custom fit the cabinets to the available space, not really. These are all aesthetic issues for the most part, and in the case of grain selection and matching, some education might have to be done. But aesthetics are important, and do have tangible and real value.

I think that what your friend is doing is approaching kitchen cabinets from an engineering standpoint, not an aesthetic one. If that's how he looks at kitchen cabinets, hammer on the custom fit issue. If you think he might respond to the aesthetics involved in furniture design, show him how cathedral grain looks terrible on a rail or stile, or how hideous a non-matched panel glue up looks. This is not hard to do. My wife has zero interest in woodworking, but I showed her these things once, and now she can't help but stare at the cabinets in our friends' kitchens, seeing how much better the doors could have been made. She hates me for that.

Now whether or not that will be important to your friend is a different matter. Your friend may decide that spending the extra money to get good grain matching isn't worth it to him, which is fine. I won't ever spend $250K on a car that goes fast, even if I had the money.

One other thing. I get the feeling that this forum is also inhabited by professionals, but I would guess that the ones here would easily see where you are coming from. To hope that the professionals on a sports car forum all would see the light might be asking a bit much. After all, they are blowing their money on sports cars, not woodworking.

Hope that helps.

P.S. Here's a picture of a kitchen cabinet door from the Ikea website. You can easily see the poor choices made as far as grain orientation for the rails and stiles.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a foot note for what it is worth. Those lengthy warranties are often "pro rated" To the original owner of course. A lot of upper income people will build a new house long before. But also their income is not so great they can afford truly custom built cabinets etc. They are often looking for something to impress others with their wealth or the appearance of, rather than true quality anyway. Everyone wants the most bang for their buck. It's just a question of why they want it IMHO. Take care.

[Mark Versprille]

Please, any one here can correct me if my use of terms is wrong. A true "Cabinet Maker" is like George Wilson (most frequently found meandering the Neander valley on SMC). His is the craftsmanship in wood everyone here aspires too. Any single piece George can make an industrial team Ikea could put together could also make. They might be able to make it better. In time and materials it might have cost $500 for George's presentation box to Elizabeth II. And it's worth it! The first box the Ikea team produced cost (lets say) $140,000 to make. But now Ikea is set up to make 200 boxes a day at a unit cost of $32.2509 (Ikea counts those extra places east of the decimal). They sell it @ $99.99 ea. and darn near anyone can have just what the Queen of England has. It took the Ikea team 6 months to get to that production point. George has moved on and built a Piano Forte nearly identical to the one Motzart used to compose 'The Magic Flute'. Ikea will never sell those.

My point is: When individuality is called for, call George. You do have to pay more to have the skills of an Ikea team in one person, though.
I, too lament the viral spread of McMansions.

[Mike Gager]

i think the person makes some valid points. not all cabinetbuilders give a darn about craftsmanship. most ive seen use melamine and particleboard to build cabinets. its all about time and money. the quicker they get the cabinets built the faster they get their money.

[Russ Boyd]

I would say your comment on "not knowing the difference" is obvious in the dentist reply. He talked about wooden drawer slides when most of us use only the best mechanical slides. Ignorance on his part I'd say. As a dentist or any other high pay occupation, my inclination to describe his desire for Ikea is to keep up with the jones' since their friends told them how great Ikea is. As far as a 25 year warranty, I very much doubt it would cover much, if anything.

[Tony Bilello]

There may be a bad assumption or two here. First off a cabinet maker by definition is one who makes cabinets. It has absolutely nothing to do with craftsmanship. Not all but most cabinet shops I have seen would be lucky to produce Home Depot quality. They are not craftsmen, they are 'cabinetmakers'. Lets not assume that because it is hand made it is good. Very bad assumption. Many good cabinetmakers will make it through the recession because their long earned reputation will carry on.
As for the general publics opinion of IKEA or a local cabinet shop....the general public does not know much about quality construction when it comes to woodworking or cabinetry. They buy what they like. We as woodworkers consider men like James Krenov, Gustav Stickley and George Nakashima to be great craftsman when in reality they are great furniture designers. If you feel like you have to compete with the BORGS and IKEA, it's time to re-evaluate your designs and pricing. You are not competing just against manufacturers of cabinets, you are competing against all of products in the world. " Do I pay more for custom cabinets or pay less and make a down payment on a new car with the extra money ?" or "Would I rather have a long Europen vacation or custom cabiinets ?" If you feel you have to educate people about quality you are wasting your time. Give them a better design and you will get the business.
This may not be the answer some of you were looking for.

[Rod Sheridan]

Larry, I think one of the viewpoints views kitchen cabinets as furniture, the other views them as trim.

Most kitchens are re-modelled on a routine basis, lets for sake of argument say on a 20 year schedule.

IKEA cabinets are extremely well engineered, and optimised. They use as little energy, materials, and generate as little environmental contaminants as economically possible.

Being a hobby woodworker, and having an FIL who's a retired cabinet maker (high end one off's), both of us agree that custom cabinets do not meet the above criteria.

Custom furniture is great, and well designed, well made furniture is often kept a lifetime. It's worth it to pay for this product.

Custom kitchen cabinets are often simply customized for fit in a particular kitchen, with a few options for drawers etc.

If a custom kitchen is remodelled in 20 years, in my opinion, it's a waste of precious resources if the cabinets were made of solid materials. I wouldn't send a Morris Chair to the dump at 20 years, yet many people send their kitchens to the dump at that age.

It's the engineer versus cabinet maker approach. The IKEA cabinet meets all the engineering requirements for strength, projected lifespan, function, resource utilitilization, environmental issues, cost etc.

The custom cabinet maker approach often doesn't meet the above criteria, however it does produce a different product, which some people consider better.

If I were a kitchen cabinetmaker, I wouldn't compete with IKEA, it's a losing proposition.

The local cabinetmaker can make one off's however, which IKEA doesn't.

Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Stagg]

I lurked around some kitchen design forums for a while before deciding on a design for the kitchen in our new house. I was astounded that many people were saving 10s of thousands of dollars by buying Ikea carcasses, and then having fronts and doors made by production houses like Scherr's. "Best of both worlds" they promised.

I was skeptical about this approach until I visited an Ikea store and poked around one of their mocked up kitchens in person - those boxes are well made! As the quote in the original post mentioned, these are engineered, not crafted. And they're done well.

Professional wood craftsman/artisans won't become dinosaurs any more than watchmakers have. We have well-engineered quartz watches that will keep time within fractions of a second to the year, yet people are still paying thousands of dollars for hand-crafted watches like Rolex, Omega, and Breitling, that are much more error-prone.

Why? Because some people will always appreciate the care that goes into hand-craftsmanship.

[Jeff Duncan]

Here's another point of view....from another cabinetmaker. I don't care what the dentist thinks, his opinion of cabinetry is about as well founded as my opinion of orthodontic processes. His reply is flawed and his understanding is flawed, and it would be a waste of time to sit here and counter it. Box stores provide a decent quality product for a decent price. Yup it's expensive when you look at what you get for your money, but that's not what the masses are looking at. When you read online forums where the majority of views seem to support buying the least expensive woodworking machinery coming from offshore, instead of better quality machines that cost a bit more, why would this be a surprise???
I'm also not in competition with Ikea or the box stores, and to be honest if your charging 33% less than the box stores I can't comprehend how your still in business. For me to build a kitchen similar in size and details to a box store would be a minimum of 20-30% more expensive. Beaded faceframes with inset doors easily double what any box store would charge if they carried them. I don't even attempt to get close to their prices and I don't try to convince box store buyers to hire me. Kinda like trying to pull someone looking at a Mustang out of a Ford showroom and get them to buy a Ferrari....not going to happen.
Nope we're not dinosuars, and we're not endangered. We serve a small percentage of the general population and will continue to do so in the future. Because there's always a need for something that's not off-the-shelf.
good luck,
JeffD

[Anthony Whitesell]

... IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. ...

That only works if the company will be in business and you haven't lost the receipt in 15, 20, or 24 years.

I bought a wonderful BBQ grill with a 5/10/25/75 year warranty (length depends on which part of the grill, ie., burner, base, etc.). The company was bought out 3 years later and belly up 4 years after that. So much for a fantastic warranty.

[Mike Henderson]

There's two parts to custom work - the design and the craftsmanship. Sam Maloof gets big money for his stuff because of the design and not because of the craftsmanship. A lot of furniture makers can make a "Maloof" chair as well as Sam but people pay for Sam's signature.

You cannot compete with factory made furniture. If the factories wanted to, and people would pay for it, they could make the furniture out of solid wood and put excellent hardware on it.

But you can make a good living working with a client (certain clients) to design something unique for them. You can also make a good living making things that fit into unique spots (certain shapes and sizes).

I get all kinds of jobs - repair of old furniture, custom jobs, modification of existing furniture and cabinets, and I don't know what else. The individual craftsman needs to be knowledgeable, flexible and innovative to survive.

If you try to beat the big guys (like Ikea) you'll lose ever time. If you try to compete on price, you'll lose every time.

Mike

[Andrew Joiner]

Ikea doesn't make cabinets or furniture. They sell boxes of parts! The quality of the final product depends on the several things.

1- The part quality,design,and size can be specked. Grain selection,exact fastener position and many other things aren't so easy.
Many times 1 screw put in a void or knot can ruin a piece,or limit it's usefull life.
2- In the cases where parts are uniform and fabricated correctly, how well does the assembler follow directions?

I could go on but here's an example.

I just assembled a "desk/work table" from Ikea for my step daughter. She had no idea the hollow core top was inadequate to hold the keyboard slide they sell for the desk. I used my experience as a cabinetmaker to ensure it will last as long as possible. As packaged and following the instructions the desk would function maybe a year at most, but I added some glued on cleats to hold the screws.

Many here are cabinetmakers. We can fabricate, assemble, sand and finish wood parts into heirlooms.
In most cases an assembler of a box of parts can't produce a final product that will hold up to normal use.

[Marty Paulus]

As far as the warranty for IKEA goes, as with all warranties, you have to read the fine print:

The limited warranties are valid from the original date of purchase of the product. In order to rely on this limited warranty, the original receipt is required as proof of purchase from the original purchaser.
The limited warranites do not apply to products that have been stored or assembled incorrectly, used inappropriately, abused, misused, altered or cleaned with wrong cleaning methods or wrong cleaning products. The limited warranites do not apply to normal wear and tear, cuts or scratches, or damage caused by impact or accidents, or in the case of PAX/KOMPLEMENT and IKEA Kitchens, where the product has been moved. The limited warranties do not apply if products have been placed outdoors or in a humid environment. The limited warranty applies to the original purchaser and where the product is used for residential use only (unless otherwise stated). Coverage terminates if the original purchaser sells or otherwise transfers the IKEA product. Whirpool, the original manufacturer of the "For IKEA from Whirpool" appliances will provide the service through it's own service operations or authorized service partner network.


Seems to me that you would be hard pressed to actually get anything out of a warranty claim for this stuff. There are enough weasel words in there to choke a lawyer. So what good is the 25 year warranty? I have a friend who sells roofs. Most shingles have long warranty. However, that only covers manufacture defects. It doesn't cover the shingles that were laid wrong and the wind blew off. Oh and by the way the warranty coverage is only for the replacement cost of the shingles not the cost to have someone climb up on the roof to replace them.

In a nut shell it is a buyer beware world with these places. Unfortunately there are also so called professionals that are anything but. Again buyer beware.