dovetailed jaws or non-dovetailed jaws? That is the question....

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Whether tis nobler in the spirit.... Ooops. Sorry. I got carried away.

So I am faced with a bit of an uncertainty. It sort of fits in the "which chuck do I get now?" vein but really only sort of... Most of the question is about the jaws on the chuck.

The situation I am faced with is that both my new Jet 1640 EVS and my Mustard Monster have 1 1/4" x 8 tpi spindles. My chucks were purchased about 2 years ago for my HF 34706 lathe which is a 1x8tpi spindle. I have 2 chucks at present. The PSI Barracuda2 and the CraftSupplies Apprentice chuck. They are extremely similar. I use the Apprentice the most just because the other one has a set of 10" cole jaws rather permanently mounted on it.

The biggest issue right now is that having just bought a Mustard lathe last summer and a Jet EVS lathe my toy money is pretty much shot. According to my wife for the rest of my life. But we will see how that goes...

So I bought the PSI spindle adapter to use my old chucks on the Jet/mustard. My goodness!!! To say that I have run out now is a massive understatement. With my standard #2-jaws chuck I didn't really see it at first. I just noticed that when turning 2 recent bowls I was faced with a constant chattering sound that was new. Since it was a twice turned bowl out of a wood I hadn't worked with before I had attributed it to that. Then I mounted up the Cole-Jaws chuck and my goodness! With that bigger flare on the jaws it is visibly wobbling. I swear it is swinging by at least a 1/16th of a inch. I would guess closer to an 1/8th. What a joke. No wonder things seemed off.

The waters muddy:
So I started looking around for new solutions. Basically that seems to be a new chuck. I talked with Bob Hamilton in a different thread about his Oneway tommy bar chuck. He really seems to like that style and design. So I did some checking here in a great many threads and the camps seem to be split right down the middle on that question. Tommy Bar vs. Scroll designs. People seem to love one or other for the most part. Both of my current chucks are of the Scroll variety. And I like them and would keep using them baring this run-out issue.

So I looked at the cheap 4-jaw Tommy Bar chuck Woodcraft has on sale right now. I liked the idea of the simple short insert that would get it onto the lathe without this run-out issue. The question in choosing it is the tommy bars and the potentially unknown quality of it. For $77 right now it seems like it could be a good short term choice.

Bernie mentioned in a post the similar cheap chuck from Grizzly. Their tommy bar version doesn't have the 1 1/4" x 8tpi version. So it is useless for me. Darn it. At that price it would have been perfect.

Then I looked at the Nova Precision Midi chuck. It has the tommy bars but to me that is the smaller concern with it. The quality is known and it should be a great quality chuck. The biggest problem with it is that it the ones I can find at WoodCraft and Craft Supplies and most of the online places are the 1x8tpi direct thread versions. The boxes/internet talk about there being an insert version but no one seems to have one. (Anyone know where I can get one?!!?) The direct threaded version leaves me with exactly the same problem.

Which leads to the Oneway version. It is expensive. Starts at about $210 and goes up from there from my web searches. The Talon is only a touch more at about $240 and for the difference I think it would be the way to go if I could afford it.

So I went back to Grizzly for the chucks the Bernie recommends. Their version of the Vicmarc VM100. For $100 with the insert and the basic chuck jaws it seems like a good call. The internal smaller insert to get to the right spindle thread etc... Just seems like a good deal all around.


However, and I suppose that was a long long lead-in but some should one have any comments then feel free to chime in on any of the above, they have dovetail jaws on them. For that matter it turns out so do the Nova Chucks and from what I can see the Vicmarc jaws are too. The Oneway standard jaws appear to be stright up and down with serrations on them.

The chucks I am used to have straight walled jaws with light serrations on them. You can look at the attached pics for a shot of them from PSI. (Sorry not sure if just an image link is allowed.)

Having never used dovetailed jaws I wonder about them. Being good enough to cut them properly and get a good grip. Will a smooth-sided dovetail hold well enough or are the serrated edges better? Are they worse? Just because I have gotten used to them doesn't mean that what I have used in the past is really better. Either for chuck types or for jaws.

So I just wanted to ask the creekers at large what they liked both about their chucks and about the type of jaws they use. And I suppose are there better adapters than others or will they all be bad in the same general way?

I just know that I have to do something I am pretty bummed about this little snafu. *sigh*

Thanks,
Joshua

P.s. I decided to just add the photos. If that isn't OK a mod can remove them or let me know and I will edit the post to remove the pics. But they are left to right the dovetailed jaws on the Vicmarc, the "straight" serrated jaws on the oneway and then the very straight jaws I am used to using from the PSI chucks. Just so people can see what I am talking about.

[Richard Madison]

Joshua,
I have two of the $99 Griz chucks w/ dovetail jaws and they seem to work well. I just eyeball the angle when turning the tenon. Does not seem to matter much, as the jaws make indentions in the tenon, creating a secure mechanical grip. Always mark the #1 jaw position on the tenon if the piece is to be removed and rechucked later. It will re-center surprisingly well. Not sure if the Griz chucks center as well as the $200 types, but once the tenon is slightly indented I don't see how that matters. IMHO dovetail jaws grip the wood well and cause it to rotate when the lathe is turned on. That's about all I need them to do. Also like the hex key. Leaves one hand free to hold the work or whatever. Yammer, yammer, etc. Other opinions may vary.

[Gordon Seto]

The Nova Midi Precision is designed for smaller turnings. It is never intended to be used for the Mustard size lathes; therefore you won't find 1-1/4" spindle thread size. So is Barracuda 2.
Dovetail jaws is never a problem. Oneway chucks also has dovetail jaws as optional accessories (they call smooth jaws).

[Bob Haverstock]

Joshua,

I had bought the least expensive Grizzly. Then I bought a new Nova Midi chuck. You are lucky that the Black Grizzly doesn't come with 1 1/4 threads. I loaned my Black Chuck out. If it doesn't ever come home, that is OK.

I think that every chuck that you have mentioned is a scroll chuck. Some are adjusted with tommy bars and the others use a wrench and pinoin gear. The pinion gear is an added expence.

I like clean dovetailed jaws. I hane never used a serrated jaw set on a wood lathe, but, then I've only been to one county fair.

Make sure that the adapters are very very clean with not visable burrs. try them one more time. If you have no success adapting the small chucks, sell them to fellow creekers. I'd be interested in the Nova.

Bob

Quote
Bernie mentioned in a post the similar cheap chuck from Grizzly. Their tommy bar version doesn't have the 1 1/4" x 8tpi version. So it is useless for me. Darn it. At that price it would have been perfect.

internal smaller insert to get to the right spindle thread etc... Just seems like a good deal all around.




Thanks,
Joshua

P.s. I decided to just add the photos. If that isn't OK a mod can remove to using from the PSI chucks. Just so people can see what I am talking about.[/QUOTE]

[Thom Sturgill]

Joshua,

I have two of the PSI chucks and bought extra jaws for the first and then just a body for the second. One of the jaw sets I bought is their new dovetail jaws and that is the set I use the most! It seems to grip much better than the serrated jaws. That said, the OneWay jaws also hold well, but notice that they are not circular but rather have a wave pattern, and the serrations are deeper than the PSI. They grip well in eight spots.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

The Nova Midi Precision is designed for smaller turnings. It is never intended to be used for the Mustard size lathes; therefore you won't find 1-1/4" spindle thread size. So is Barracuda 2.
Dovetail jaws is never a problem. Oneway chucks also has dovetail jaws as optional accessories (they call smooth jaws).

Gordon,

I might have a Mustard lathe but I have yet to turn anything over 12 inches. Wood like that is expensive and heavy and ... Most of what I turn is smaller bowls and lidded boxes. I have made 2 whole pens to date.

I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't trying to swing a 20" bowl with the Nova Midi chuck. I was just looking to be able to continue turning. The smoothness and lack of vibration in a bigger lathe is amazing. I would never go back to my little HF and so far I have only used the Jet.

But the adapter I have won't work even for these smaller bowls I have been turning. It introduces too much into the mix.

Joshua

[Don Eddard]

I have both serrated straight jaws and dovetail jaws. I prefer (and trust) the dovetail jaws the most.

Joshua, I see you are trying to bargain-shop your way out of a problem. Inevitably, you'll spend more money in the long run gearing up your shop that way. DAMHIKT. I'd suggest saving up your lunch/beer/poker money and just getting either a Supernova 2, Talon, or something else in that class. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands on dollars on good lathes only to use a Wal*Mart approach to mounting the wood on your lathe. Especially when you'll most likely replace it with a higher-quality chuck.

As an aside, you mentioned that big wood can be expensive, but you might be surprised how much free suburban timber you can get by talking to arborists and landscaping companies.

[Dick Sowa]

In the big scheme of things, it probably won't matter a great deal...you will get used to whatever configuration you have, and learn to size and cut your tenons accordingly.

I happen to like the Talon design, but it's the only chuck I own. Part of the reason has to do with the way it grips. The curved inside faces of the jaws will grip the tenon in two places for each jaw, regardless of the size of the tenon...and close to equa-distant apart. A chuck using smooth/dovetail jaws will need to have the tenon sized exactly to match the curve of the jaws, otherwise the jaws will only grip the tenon in two places...at the edges of the jaw. My way of thinking is that if that's the way most tenons will be gripped, then I should go with serrated jaws to make the grip that much stronger.

The run out issue is a surprise...since I had been thinking of getting a spindle adapter too. But now maybe that isn't such a good idea.

[Ken Glass]

Joshua,
I have the a Mustard and I use both the Super Nova 2 and a couple Grizzly Chucks Model H6267 at 1-1/4x8 tpi. ( Recommended by Bernie) The grizzly chucks work really well and they will also accommodate the Vicmark jaws and the Nova jaws. You should use at least the Grizzly chuck at 3-3/4" on your lathe though for safety sake. I am a big fan of the Super Nova 2 because it is smoother than the Grizzly, but you could start there and save up for a SN2 very quickly. I see the SN2 on sale all the time for under $150. As far as the serrated jaws, they have their place, but I rarely put them on a chuck anymore. Both the mentioned chucks will hold your turning pretty well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Joshua I have 3 of the Grizzly chucks and a Vicmarc. I hate changing jaws. Had I known at the time that the Vic jaws would work on the Grizz that would be all I would have. Right now most of my turnings are with the 1 1/4 X 8 Griz chuck with the Vic shark jaws or the big jaws that will hold a 4" tenon. I have never lost a piece with the Griz chucks.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Joshua I have 3 of the Grizzly chucks and a Vicmarc. I hate changing jaws. Had I known at the time that the Vic jaws would work on the Grizz that would be all I would have. Right now most of my turnings are with the 1 1/4 X 8 Griz chuck with the Vic shark jaws or the big jaws that will hold a 4" tenon. I have never lost a piece with the Griz chucks.

Bernie,

Where do you buy your Vic jaws at? CraftSupplies?

Joshua

[Reed Gray]

If you are used to the scroll chucks, you will not get along with the tommy bar chucks. I have the Vicmark chucks and they come with dove tailed jaws. There is a slight mechanical advantage with the dove tail as compared to the straight jaws. When using a recess or tenon, it is important to have the size and angles match closely to get the best grip. A tenon slightly oversized, and a recess slightly oversized. when you get jaws that are gripping a tenon that is 4 inched in diameter, and the jaws closed are 2 inches, you loose a lot of gripping power, and the same with a recess. If you are turning larger bowls, you will need a larger chuck and jaws.

As far as the run out goes, a spindle adapter adds to the problem because it makes a longer lever. You want thread adapters in your chucks, not on the headstock spindle. If you can't change the threads, and don't have another lathe to put them on, sell them, and there is some money for a new chuck. Also, with the PM, you should make some things to sell so you can 'support' your habit.

robo hippy

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Josh I have 3 Talon chucks and all the different top jaws for it, I also have a Stronghold with all the jaws, My choice to go with the Oneway chucks is that they do have a number of advantages over the other chucks, they won't rust, they have the jaws open farther than the other chucks, they use hardened toolsteel for the chuck.
All chucks but the tommy bar ones do have the pinions to turn the scroll, either build into the chuck or like the Oneway on the chuck key, I prefer the one on the key, it will not trap dirt and makes for less weight spinning around.
The profiled jaws will hold the wood over all the dimensions that the chuck is able to open up to, instead of being forced to always make your tenon/recess to a certain exact size in order to hold well.
I have a large lathe that I use for my big size bowls, it has no tailstock on the outboard side, so I am always depending on my chuck to hold these big pieces all by itself, and the profiled jaws have done this time and again, something my dovetail jaws are unable to do.
My well meant recommendation is go for the profiled jaws, and a Oneway chuck, either the standard tommy bar chuck or the Talon, they will last a lifetime and you won't need to upgrade later, have fun and take care

[Toney Robertson]

As far as the run out goes, a spindle adapter adds to the problem because it makes a longer lever. You want thread adapters in your chucks, not on the headstock spindle.
robo hippy

Reed,

Why would it make any difference if the thread adapters are in your chucks or on the headstock spindle? This does not make sense to me.

If you would clear this up I would appreciate it.

Toney

[Roger Wilson]

I've got a Nova Midi chuck and use it on a Delta midi. It is fine. The requirement for dovetail tenons is an extra requirement but not much of one. If you are looking for a Nova chuck on a larger lathe I'd look at the Nova G3 as a step up.